M119 engine without power and noisy

[malleus]

Hey community,

I´m Sebastian from Germany and first of all I want to thank you to let me join your community.

I can call a classic Mercedes my own. It’s a W124 400E from 1992, Engine M119.975, US-Reimport (not a 500E but almost ;-)

I have some trouble with my Engine so I hope you can help me with my issue.

The car starts well and has smooth idle. But when shifting into drive and accelarate the engine is just grumbling and the acceleration is very poor. Feels like driving a 50 hp motor. The more i push down the pedal the more this takes effect. When pushing the pedal tot he florr the car starts to stuck and to jump as if the engine is dying. In the first time that accurs only when the engine is warm. Meanwhile it happens even after cold start.

Here is what I already did.

LH System:

• Professional reconditioning of the ETA to factory values
• Change the MAF sensor to a good working used one (checked by diagnostic)
• Change the air intake temperature sensor
• Changed the wire harnes of engine
• Replaced all injectors to new Bosch ones
• Change the LH ECU to another used one
• Read out error codes => none

Fuel System:

• Replaced the fuel pressure regulator to new Bosch type
• Replaced the fuel filter

Ignition System:

• Replaced the cam shaft position sensor
• Replace the ignition coils to new Bosch ones
• Replace the ignition wires to new Bosch ones
• Replace the distributor caps and fingers to new Bosch ones
• Replace all spark plugs
• Testing all sparks of all cylinders with a spark tester
• Read out error codes => none

Engine:

• Did a compression test to all cylinders => all have about 12 bar except cylinder 7 has just 9 bar
• Checked the vaccum hoses for leaks
• Checked all fuses

I’m confused cause all this actions did not take any effect to my discribed issue. I also take a little ride to meassure the fuel pressure under load but it looks fine. It has 3,2 bar on idle and nearly 4 bar under load and it is constant even if the engine is noisy. So i don’t tink there is a fuel issue.

There are no error codes stored in the ECUs and there is no warning light in the instrument cluster.

Maybe some of you guys can give me a clue what ist he matter. I want my V8 back ;-)


Cheers
Sebastian

 

[gsxr]

It almost sounds like you are experiencing a severe misfire. Did you replace the insulators behind the distributor rotor bracket? If not, did you remove them and inspect for liquid on the back of the insulator? There are multiple forum threads covering this in more detail, with photos. Do you have access to SDS to view live data from the EZL, specifically ignition voltages? That may be helpful.

BTW - welcome to the forum!

 

[gerryvz]

 

[JC220]

What about the oxygen sensor on the exhaust has that been checked in Live Data?

How does it rev and feel in the first few seconds immediately after a stone cold startup? (Open loop)

 

[malleus]

Hey Guys,

thanks for your quick response and your greetings.

It almost sounds like you are experiencing a severe misfire. Did you replace the insulators behind the distributor rotor bracket? If not, did you remove them and inspect for liquid on the back of the insulator? There are multiple forum threads covering this in more detail, with photos. Do you have access to SDS to view live data from the EZL, specifically ignition voltages? That may be helpful.

I also renewed the insulators on the backside of the distributor caps a few month ago (missed it in my listing). The old ones where totally worn and the gasket was gone. The cam shaft seal behind it was a little wet but not oily. I opened the distributors again last weekend and they were dry inside. i've already read this a few times in some articles. I have access to a Gnuine Star Diagnosis in a Workshop near me. I didn't read out live data, just the errors.

What about the oxygen sensor on the exhaust has that been checked in Live Data?

How does it rev and feel in the first few seconds immediately after a stone cold startup? (Open loop)

the voltages of the oxygen sensor seem to be OK. The problem with the poor acceleration occurs all the time even after a real cold start.

A few days ago I took a little ride while running hfmscan an recorded the live data from LH while accelerating:



The black curve is the Vehicle speed. You can see jumping signals while accelerating phases at about 200 s and 250 s but I have no idea why.

Here is another picture with a closer look to the first acceleration phase:



I hope this helps.

 

[Rouven036]

Have you double checked the correctness of ignition cable arrangement, that the firing order is correct. This can be a bit fussy. Also have you checked your catalytic converters from the engine side for clogging/melting damage etc?
Also check that the [camshaft] base timing is correct with removed valve covers (check the inner guide rails while on it too).

If i interpret it well, your log is showing a implausible air mass movement at a certain point.

 

[malleus]

Have you double checked the correctness of ignition cable arrangement, that the firing order is correct. This can be a bit fussy. Also have you checked your catalytic converters from the engine side for clogging/melting damage etc?
Also check that the [camshaft] base timing is correct with removed valve covers (check the inner guide rails while on it too).

If i interpret it well, your log is showing a implausible air mass movement at a certain point.

Yes, I have even changed all ignition wires from Bosch to NGK just to be sure. It does not take any effect. firing order is correct regarding to the labels on the rotor caps. I did not check the catalytic converter by now. I will do the next time, the car is on my lifting ramp.

The timing chain and the guiding rails were changed a few month ago. after that the engine seems to run at the first time but the problem went back when the engine warms up.

I couln't say if the values are implausible. It looks like that the MAF signal is follwoing the throttle body angle.

Maybe after all there is an issue with the rotors or caps. They look fine and clean inside but i could not check the electrical connection especially under load.

 

[Kyiv]

If distributor caps looked good, but were actually bad, I'm guessing you'd be fine while the engine was cold, with malfunctioning progressively developing as the engine got warmer. Not outright.

You have the same behavior with both LH modules? Have you tried putting old one back after all the other parts were changed, to rule it out?

Alternatively, could it be that a new ignition coil is bad? If you have the old ones, might be worth swapping them in in turn

 

[Rouven036]

Sorry I ment air mass meter voltage (lmm voltage) I can't find a plausible explanation why that signal shall look like that. Is there a relation to the rpm the issue starts to occur? Like at over/about 3600-3800rpm?

 

[gsxr]

Does this car have ASR? If so, has the neutral safety switch been checked/replaced?

Also, with the engine at operating temp, does it still idle normally (smooth, no misfire)?

Finally - any chance the exhaust / catalysts are plugged?

 

[malleus]

If distributor caps looked good, but were actually bad, I'm guessing you'd be fine while the engine was cold, with malfunctioning progressively developing as the engine got warmer. Not outright.

You have the same behavior with both LH modules? Have you tried putting old one back after all the other parts were changed, to rule it out?

Alternatively, could it be that a new ignition coil is bad? If you have the old ones, might be worth swapping them in in turn

Good morning from Germany. Maybe you are right with the temperature problem. In the first time it was like this but meanwhile it occurs even at cold engine. It goes more and more to this.

The issue with both LH modules is the same.
Maybe a problem with some of the new parts in the ignition system.

Sorry I ment air mass meter voltage (lmm voltage) I can't find a plausible explanation why that signal shall look like that. Is there a relation to the rpm the issue starts to occur? Like at over/about 3600-3800rpm?

Maybe this is an effect of the regulation to keep the hot wire on constant temperature. I am not sure but the rpm does not flutter like this. It just stucks and slowly increases when this happened.

Does this car have ASR? If so, has the neutral safety switch been checked/replaced?

Also, with the engine at operating temp, does it still idle normally (smooth, no misfire)?

Finally - any chance the exhaust / catalysts are plugged?

Yes, the car has ASR. I don't know this switch but I will look into the diagrams. Maybe you can give me a label like S50.

On idle there is no problem at cold and warm engine. It has very smooth idle, runs quiet and reacts fast to the throttle lever.

The catalyst is one of the last parts i didn't check really but I will.

My car has saisonal license plates and I can officially ride next month

By the way, what kind of rotors, caps cables and spark plugs do you guys use?

Thanks a lot for all that support here

 

[emerydc8]

Welcome to the forum.

I think it may be the cats too. Splice a vacuum gauge where the vacuum hose connects to the three pods behind the master brake booster. Run the gauge under the hood so you can see the gauge while driving. I had clogged cats and the problem didn't present itself until about 3500 RPM. I had another E420 to compare it to and I noticed that on the good car, during a test drive, the manifold pressure acted very different than the car with clogged cats. I wish I could find the video to show you as I went through this problem. Here's the data I collected during the process.

Hanging up/Stumbling at 4000 RPM | M119 Engine

I have been troubleshooting this problem for the past week with no luck. Maybe someone else can throw in some suggestions since I'm running out of ideas. At 45 mph, I can put the car in neutral and rev the engine all the way to redline without any apparent hesitation or stumble. But if I hold...

www.500eboard.co

 

[malleus]

Hey Gerry, also greetings from liquid iron aka Jürgen. He gave me a hint for this community

 

[gerryvz]

Hey Gerry, also greetings from liquid iron aka Jürgen. He gave me a hint for this community

Holy Crap !! We miss that guy !! It's been many years since I visited him at his secret workshop....

Please tell him Hello from the 500Eboard Gang.

An afternoon at LiquidIron's shop (Germany) | High-Performance Modifications

A few years ago I visited the semi-legendary mechanic named LiquidIron, who used to post on 500Ecstasy quite often. I went to see what he was doing with his 500E. I took lots of photos and am reposting them here. He was really an amazing guy, an MB powerplant engineer. Very hospitable guy to...

www.500eboard.co

 

[195910]

Hey Gerry, also greetings from liquid iron aka Jürgen. He gave me a hint for this community

Well that's a name he didn't hear from in circa 15 year!
From the days of Scott's forum.

Does Jurgen still own the project car?

 

[malleus]

Holy Crap !! We miss that guy !! It's been many years since I visited him at his secret workshop....

Please tell him Hello from the 500Eboard Gang.

An afternoon at LiquidIron's shop (Germany) | High-Performance Modifications

A few years ago I visited the semi-legendary mechanic named LiquidIron, who used to post on 500Ecstasy quite often. I went to see what he was doing with his 500E. I took lots of photos and am reposting them here. He was really an amazing guy, an MB powerplant engineer. Very hospitable guy to...

www.500eboard.co

Greetings back from Jürgen. He is like my Mentor now. Because of him I bought my M119 last year.
Maybe you can reactivate his old liquidiron account.

Well that's a name he didn't hear from in circa 15 year!
From the days of Scott's forum.

Does Jurgen still own the project car?

Yes, he still owns this car. It is at 90% but it was stored the last years.

 

[gerryvz]

I don't believe he ever had an account on this forum, since it started in 2008. But he is very welcome to register.

Search results for query: liquidiron

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[malleus]

Hey guys,

today I had a little time for my baby and took a closer look to the distributors:



the rotors doesn't look bad but the contacts inside the caps look really burned. All contacts in both caps look the same. I am a newbie with ignition systems but I think this is pretty much.
These caps a orgininal Bosch and just one year old.

What could be the reason for that buring?

Cheers
Sebastian

 

[gsxr]

That "burned" appearance is completely normal. Nothing to worry about.

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, those metal contacts inside of the cap are just fine, and are not hurting anything or causing any problems.

 

[malleus]

Welcome to the forum.

I think it may be the cats too. Splice a vacuum gauge where the vacuum hose connects to the three pods behind the master brake booster. Run the gauge under the hood so you can see the gauge while driving. I had clogged cats and the problem didn't present itself until about 3500 RPM. I had another E420 to compare it to and I noticed that on the good car, during a test drive, the manifold pressure acted very different than the car with clogged cats. I wish I could find the video to show you as I went through this problem. Here's the data I collected during the process.

Hanging up/Stumbling at 4000 RPM | M119 Engine

I have been troubleshooting this problem for the past week with no luck. Maybe someone else can throw in some suggestions since I'm running out of ideas. At 45 mph, I can put the car in neutral and rev the engine all the way to redline without any apparent hesitation or stumble. But if I hold...

www.500eboard.co

Good morning from Germany,

yesterday I had the chance to disconnect and inspect my cats. Here is what the right one look like:

So this side seems to be melted with the white and closed pores.



The left side looks like this:


They are no melted pores visible.

All pictures are taken from the outtake side, cause we didn't had the space to get the cats completele out:



That's just bad luck.

Anyway, now I have an idea what the problem is and I'm looking for some new or good and used cats.

Cheers
Sebastian

 

[195910]

Difficult call, I Don't think they are available from M-B Anymore.