Ticking after warmed up (Has metal Oilers)

[gsxr]

Uncle Kent's video is talking about the well-known problem with M116/M117 engines, which need high ZDDP oil to keep the valvetrain from failing. The moly (MoS2) might also work, and/or it's possible the LiquiMoly he's showing has adequate ZDDP levels (I don't have time to look it up; couldn't find any VOA or UOA for this specific oil). This is apples & oranges though; different engines have different needs. I wouldn't use that stuff in an M116/M117, but that's just me.

The LiquiMoly is a good oil, and would be fine for the M119. It would be interesting to see if it makes any difference with otherwise incurable lifter ticking. FWIW, the Red Line 10W-40 that I use in my M119's has fairly high ZDDP and also high levels of moly, they just don't market or advertise the moly.

Interestingly, in 2019 @kiev posted some analysis data (click here) on LM 5W-40, which shows low ZDDP and also low moly levels. Hmmm.

Another thread on BITOG (link) mentioned that you better shake the LiquiMoly bottle well before using, or all the moly goodness could be sitting on the bottom of the jug, dropped out of suspension.

EDIT - found a UOA (below) from this link, but can't confirm if it's LM LEICHTLAUF or not, which is what Kent shows. 1200 zincs and 900 phosphorii is not bad, but only 74 moly? My preferred Red Line is in the 600-800 range for moly. (!?) Not that moly is the most important part of the additive package, but it makes me wonder about the LM total package. The BITOG peanut gallery was clearly less impressed than Kent.

 

[grim 140]

Very Interesting.. I’ll find out in a couple of days if the oil will work!

 

[grim 140]

Very Interesting.. I’ll find out in a couple of days if the oil will work!

Still waiting on oil. Should be here tomorrow.

 

[grim 140]

Ok...well the oil is helping I guess?
The ticking is intermittent.it will tick most of the drive and then stop ticking for maybe ten minutes or so then start back up again. So if I drive around for 30 min. it will then stop ticking for ten minutes or so then start again. The time between ticking and not.. is completely random. But never stops ticking longer then ten or fifteen minutes. It’s been two days now since I poured the liqui moly in. I’ll give it a few more days and see.

 

[Kyiv]

Ok...well the oil is helping I guess?
The ticking is intermittent.it will tick most of the drive and then stop ticking for maybe ten minutes or so then start back up again. So if I drive around for 30 min. it will then stop ticking for ten minutes or so then start again. The time between ticking and not.. is completely random. But never stops ticking longer then ten or fifteen minutes. It’s been two days now since I poured the liqui moly in. I’ll give it a few more days and see.

Definitely a progress. I don't understand how that MoS2 that's been debunked 10,000 times as a useful motor oil additive does what it does

 

[036]

Liqui Molly 10w40 MoS2

Yes! I tried every oil brand, only Liqui had no oil usage at all. At any speed.

 

[grim 140]

Okay, I give up!!
Time to do timing chain guides and check lifters!
Any recommended MB dealers to order parts from?
I am also ordering from FCP euro.
Thanks to everyone for help on this issue

 

[grim 140]

Well, I have both valve covers off and believe or not everything pins timing wise almost perfect! How is that possible? Take a look!

 

[gsxr]

Well, I have both valve covers off and believe or not everything pins timing wise almost perfect! How is that possible? Take a look!

That means your timing chain is in good condition, and all chain rails are intact. There may be 1°-2° stretch, but you can't tell with the Allen wrench used in the holes. The correct tools are a tight tolerance slip-fit. If you have a 6mm drill bit, try using the non-pointy end.

 

[grim 140]

Your right!! My bad I have 5 degrees of stretch. If I’m reading that correct ?

 

[grim 140]

Also with a partial broken 1inch tip off of a guide

 

[gsxr]

Your right!! My bad I have 5 degrees of stretch. If I’m reading that correct ?

Yup, that shows 5° of stretch. Some of this will be from the broken guide, which I'd strongly recommend repairing, but it's a lot of work.

I'm guessing that is with the passenger side exhaust pinned... the driver side will likely show less stretch.

Remember to NEVER rotate the engine backwards, btw!

 

[grim 140]

The plan is replace all the upper chain guides in the heads and check the lifters to see which one is bad! Because of the ticking noise I had, that won’t go away! Im hoping I can find which one is bad.

 

[gerryvz]

Yep, you're sitting at 5 degrees. I'd say probably 2-3 degrees of that is likely from the broken off upper guide rail.

The guides are not a horrible job to do, as long as you are patient and methodical. Relatively easy to do on the passenger side of the motor, but on the driver's side you have to remove the tandem pump + bracket to get at the pins for one of the rails, which makes the job a real PITA. And on both sides, you have to remove the intake cam sprocket, another PITA and one that is best done for re-assembly of the intake cam adjusters with the MB special tool ($$$).

I detailed it in painful depth in my Top-End thread here, from last year. Check the following posts:

Here (passenger side)

Here (driver's side)

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[grim 140]

I was hoping it would be easier like a timing belt. So I will definitely take my time.

 

[grim 140]

The wrench for adjusting the camshafts that is a 38 mm correct?

 

[gsxr]

The wrench for adjusting the camshafts that is a 38 mm correct?

Which wrench are you referring to?

The camshafts don't really "adjust"... you rotate them until they pin in place, then with the crank set at 45°, you lay the chain over everything and install the tensioner. FSB job 05-2230 at this link. The wrench shown is thin and oddly sized at 26.5mm and 27.5mm, but you can use any wrench that will rotate the cams once the chain is off the sprockets.

If you mean the large nut on the intake cam adjuster mechanism, I don't know the size. Gerry used a Crescent™ wrench in his How-To writeup linked above.

 

[grim 140]

That’s one! Thanks!

 

[gerryvz]

I do not have the factory wrench for the M119 that the @gsxr shows above. I do have the similar tool for the M104, which has slightly different mm measurements for that engine's cams. However, it works on the M119's cam "flats" for rotating or holding the M119 cams. For the armatures on the ends of the intake cam adjusters, yes, I used a Crescent wrench. You can definitely use a Crescent wrench on the cam's flats, as well. Just make sure it is snugly adjusted.

 

[grim 140]

I took a old 1 inch wrench and ground down the inside to open it up. Also had to thin the outside of it. Took me about 30 min of grinding and testing for fit. Worked out great and good snug fit! I’ll post a pic when I get home from work tonight.

 

[grim 140]

Here ya go!
A little more fine tuning needed!

 

[grim 140]

Okay good news?
I found four lifters soft and one broken guide all on the left side. The soft lifters are from the area I was listening to through a stethoscope. So I will replace the left intake side of lifters total of 8 just for uniformity. Does that sound right or just replace the ones that are soft? Thoughts?

 

[Kyiv]

found four lifters soft

@gsxr, in your estimation, what are tangible problems do soft lifters create?

 

[grim 140]

From what I have read. Soft lifters that can be pushed in easy are bad and they push in pretty easy!
Or what’s the term “bled out” and are not bad. That is the same area that the noise was pinpointed from.

 

[gsxr]

@gsxr, in your estimation, what are tangible problems do soft lifters create?

AFAIK, the only real symptom is potential ticking noises. This is the first I've heard of an actual failure though, especially with only 135kmi, which is bizarre. I know many engines with 200-300kmi that are silent.

Although you could just replace the soft ones, given the labor involved, I'd be tempted to replace all 8 under that camshaft (assuming all 4 are under the same cam). Hopefully this will result in silent operation.

Also, it's great you found the broken chain rail, so you can replace all those at the same time.

 

[grim 140]

Does any know the part number for the timing chain tensioner gasket or is it okay to reuse the old one?

 

[Joncf]

Does any know the part number for the timing chain tensioner gasket or is it okay to reuse the old one?

1190520680

 

[grim 140]

1190520680

Great thanks!
I’ll order that with the lifters tomorrow! Going to do all 8

 

[grim 140]

UPDATE!!!
I have finished installing the timing chain guides and the left intake cam lifters.
Happy to report no more Ticking!!
I have driven it two hundred miles. So far so good!
Thanks to everyone for the help!

 

[Kyiv]

UPDATE!!!
I have finished installing the timing chain guides and the left intake cam lifters.
Happy to report no more Ticking!!
I have driven it two hundred miles. So far so good!
Thanks to everyone for the help!

How did you extract lifters fro their nests? How did you go about inserting new once without them getting stuck midway? Thanks

 

[Kridre]

If you want to remove the lifter from the bucket just smack the lifter on some wooden block few time's, it should pop out on it's own. If this is what you meant.

I didn't remember having any issues with lifters getting stuck mid way when installing.

Here is the lifter fully disassembled.

 

[Kyiv]

If you want to remove the lifter from the bucket just smack the lifter on some wooden block few times

I meant to ask “what is the best way to extract the bucket from the cylinder head”

I didnt remember having any issues with lifters getting stuck mid way when installing.

I’v extracted only one lifter (9-10 months ago) and when installing it back, since the tolerance is very tight, it had to go in very precisely. Took me some 10 minutes to fiddle with it before that happened. When it gets stuck going in, it’s unpleasant to extract it due to metal-to-metal scraping. So perhaps there is some “special” technique?

 

[Kyiv]

my car stood for 10 months. I’ve just tried pushing on 7-8 lifters (buckets) while they are in the cylinder head, and they do give. Before, when I just opened the top of the engine up they were firm — well, those I could press on strongly with my thumb. Towards the back, they are at such angle, that it is not possible to press firm enough without breaking the thumb. Guess I’ll have to extract them one by one and see if any compress more easily then others

@Kridre, when you were inspecting yours, did you do it with them sitting in their nests, in the cylinder head or by removing them? If while they were in the cylinder head, what did you use to press on them?

 

[Kyiv]

Alright. Pulling them out buckets on passenger side one by one, and testing them this way

they are all firm: one thumb is not strong enough to compress even a little a single lifter. When installed into the cyl head, two thumbs can compress them a little. I guess that means they are good?

 

[Kridre]

I inspected the lifters when installed in the head by just pushing them whit my fingers. Don't use anything stiff because you can open the valves this way.

I removed the lifters form.the head with my tinny fingers and that's it, no need for any tools.

When installing them back just coat them with a lot of oil and there is almost 0% of scraping something, oil should protect the surface. Just make sure they are going in straight.

Squeeze test is not always telling the full story, when I was doing my timing chain 4 years ago I had ticking noise in the left head but I couldn't compress any of the lifters. Installed everything back and ticking was still there.

Now I cleaned every lifter before putting everything back together and I will see if that's solved anything. I recommend you doing the same even if the lifters feel ok.

If you're planning to keep this car for long also maybe try to replace the valve stems seals. It is doable without removing the heads and when the engine is still in the car, but real PITA job. It took me around 6 hours to do this with engine on the stand. With the engine is in the car this is 10h+ job and a lot of back pain, also second preson for help is recommended. You also need a special tool and compressor. If you're not comfortable doing this just leave them alone.

 

[Kyiv]

I cleaned every lifter before putting everything back together

How did you clean them?

If youre planning to keep this car for long also maybe try to replace the valve stems seals. It is doable without removing the heads and when the engine is still in the car, but real PITA job. It took me around 6 hours to do this with engine on the stand. With the engine is in the car this is 10h+ job and a lot of back pain

I‘ve actually visited a doctor yesterday re right background lumbar pain that has never really went away from the last time (June 22) I was hunched over the engine bay. That’s the first time in my life I have a persistent discomfort from a mild pain that isn’t going away. Just hunching over removing and reinstalling lifters yesterday at night made it worse. Irritating to say the least. No bending - everything is fine . Long story short: valve stem seals will have to wait. I hope I’ll be able to assemble everything back as it is

 

[gerryvz]

How did you clean them?

I‘ve actually visited a doctor yesterday re right background lumbar pain that has never really went away from the last time (June 22) I was hunched over the engine bay. That’s the first time in my life I have a persistent discomfort from a mild pain that isn’t going away. Just hunching over removing and reinstalling lifters yesterday at night made it worse. Irritating to say the least. No bending - everything is fine . Long story short: valve stem seals will have to wait. I hope I’ll be able to assemble everything back as it is

I know what you mean. I got a medium case of plantar fasciitis in my right foot from my 2020 COVID job. This was from wearing a worn-out pair of "garage shop" Olukai slip-on shoes when I did much of the work over those 4 months.

After the pain didn't go away, I went to the podiatrist a few months later, and had to get a cortisone shot straight into the bottom of my foot (ouch!), and then a pair of custom orthotics made. Within a few weeks the foot pain eased, and after 6-8 months it was totally gone. Even now though, I have to be very careful to wear supportive shoes (with good arch support). If I wear crappy/non-supportive shoes for more than a couple of days, my foot likes to let me know it doesn't like what I'm doing to it, though it's more slight discomfort that goes away in a few hours, rather than any outright pain. I'll probably be keeping this plantar fasciitis at bay the rest of my life.

 

[Kyiv]

I know what you mean. I got a medium case of plantar fasciitis in my right foot from my 2020 COVID job. This was from wearing a worn-out pair of garage shop Olukai slip-on shoes when I did much of the work over those 4 months.

After the pain didnt go away, I went to the podiatrist a few months later, and had to get a cortisone shot straight into the bottom of my foot (ouch!), and then a pair of custom orthotics made. Within a few weeks the foot pain eased, and after 6-8 months it was totally gone. Even now though, I have to be very careful to wear supportive shoes (with good arch support). If I wear crappy/non-supportive shoes for more than a couple of days, my foot likes to let me know it doesnt like what Im doing to it, though its more slight discomfort that goes away in a few hours, rather than any outright pain. Ill probably be keeping this plantar fasciitis at bay the rest of my life.

Yeah, one day you are a hoof-tamping stallion and then, 1-2 injury events, and you’re a nag. What I’m curious is how do professional mechanics do it, day in and day out? I know you’re older than me, Gerry, how did your back responded to “un-bending” after long “bending” session over the engine bay, during your COVID project? You did not resort to wearing any type of supporting belt, right?

As to shoes, I don’t wear anything but proper $100+ running sneakers with sport socks (supposedly provide some cushion/support). No flip flops or loafers ever, unless 50 meters from room to the beach, with 30 meters being on sand. May not look mature or be appropriate for all occasions, but i don’t work at an office. On occasions where i need to wear dress shoes, my, spoiled-by-proper-snickers feet, let me know the same day they don’t like wearing wooden foot ware: the hills, the arch, the front pillows… and Im not heavy 175-180 lb, at 6 feet. Also, walking in said sport socks around the house (instead barefooted) completely eliminates rough hills - mine are near baby-smooth . So yeah, I know what you mean about wearing properly comfortable foot ware!

 

[Kridre]

@Kyiv You need to disassemble them like showed in the picture I posted before and just dunk them in some cleaning solution. Simple all purpose cleaner works the best for me. Do it maybe 8 at the time leave them soaking for few hours and then put back together. Remember that you can't mix any of the parts between the lifters. When assembling you need to bleed the air out of the lifter and put some oil in them, not to much. They can't be rock hard there must be some movement when squeezed with fingers.

Here you have video that I used to rebuild the lifters CLICK ME

 

[Kyiv]

@Kyiv You need to disassemble them like showed in the picture I posted before and just dunk them in some cleaning solution. Simple all purpose cleaner works the best for me. Do it maybe 8 at the time leave them soaking for few hours and then put back together. Remember that you cant mix any of the parts between the lifters. When assembling you need to bleed the air out of the lifter and put some oil in them, not to much. They cant be rock hard there must be some movement when squeezed with fingers.

Here you have video that I used to rebuild the lifters CLICK ME

Do these bucket lifters go bad because of the gunk accumulating inside? That means engine flushes and/or “lifter additives” might actually work?

 

[Kridre]

I don't know, maybe? My engine is still waiting for the body so I don't know if this helped or not. I had 3 bad lifters that would collapse, after cleaning they work as they should.

Design of this things is so simple that I cannot see them going bad, besides the stuck check valve because of the gunk build up.

 

[Benzy Boy]

Uncle Kent's video is talking about the well-known problem with M116/M117 engines, which need high ZDDP oil to keep the valvetrain from failing. The moly (MoS2) might also work, and/or it's possible the LiquiMoly he's showing has adequate ZDDP levels (I don't have time to look it up; couldn't find any VOA or UOA for this specific oil). This is apples & oranges though; different engines have different needs. I wouldn't use that stuff in an M116/M117, but that's just me.

The LiquiMoly is a good oil, and would be fine for the M119. It would be interesting to see if it makes any difference with otherwise incurable lifter ticking. FWIW, the Red Line 10W-40 that I use in my M119's has fairly high ZDDP and also high levels of moly, they just don't market or advertise the moly.

Interestingly, in 2019 @kiev posted some analysis data (click here) on LM 5W-40, which shows low ZDDP and also low moly levels. Hmmm.

Another thread on BITOG (link) mentioned that you better shake the LiquiMoly bottle well before using, or all the moly goodness could be sitting on the bottom of the jug, dropped out of suspension.

EDIT - found a UOA (below) from this link, but can't confirm if it's LM LEICHTLAUF or not, which is what Kent shows. 1200 zincs and 900 phosphorii is not bad, but only 74 moly? My preferred Red Line is in the 600-800 range for moly. (!?) Not that moly is the most important part of the additive package, but it makes me wonder about the LM total package. The BITOG peanut gallery was clearly less impressed than Kent.



View attachment 131104

I'm late to the party but apparently the reason the oil analysis doesn't detect liquid moly MoS2 Molybenum levels is because the analysis only detects Molybdenum atoms. Redline uses dissolved Molybdenum Dithiocarbamate which separates into Molybdenum ions in the oil solution but liquid moly uses MoS2 which is a colloidal suspension of the MoS2 molecules that isn't detected in tests for Molybdenum.

Source: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/moly-mos2-molybdenum-disulphide.7020/page-2