Transmission Modifications, Gearbox and Differential Ratio

[gsxr]

If you want to up the pressures in a .3 that is easy. Just turn up the modulator adjustment. You can get quite a bit out of it. Make smaller adjustements and keep track of how many turns so you can go back. I normally do 1-2 turns at a time.

how silly a VB do you want??? I've got a recipe for St I, II and III....III being what we run on track.

I want the 722.3 to shift buttery smooth at light throttle, and quick/firm at full throttle. My experimenting has always resulted in too-firm light throttle shifts when the pressure is bumped up, and/or the Superior springs are added to firm up a particular shift. More annoying is that I can maybe get one or two of the shifts acceptable, but the third ends up being annoying. Fix the third and it hurts the other two, etc etc. I know, I know, I need a fully rebuilt trans; this would (well, should) cure the discrepanices.

The 722.6 is able to achieve what I described above (well, to a point anyway, the WOT shifts are good but not exactly "firm" in my tired 722.6).

 

[maw1124]

I want the 722.3 to shift buttery smooth at light throttle, and quick/firm at full throttle. My experimenting has always resulted in too-firm light throttle shifts when the pressure is bumped up, and/or the Superior springs are added to firm up a particular shift. More annoying is that I can maybe get one or two of the shifts acceptable, but the third ends up being annoying. Fix the third and it hurts the other two, etc etc. I know, I know, I need a fully rebuilt trans; this would (well, should) cure the discrepanices.

The 722.6 is able to achieve what I described above (well, to a point anyway, the WOT shifts are good but not exactly "firm" in my tired 722.6).

Yeah, that's been my experience as well to some extent, even with my rebuilt one. As I understand it, that's because the .3 is a pressure system and the .6 electronic. Hence on the .3, the vacuum modulator (thanks for the HWA P/N GSXR) and Redline Type F fluid (thanks to Jono) seem to be my best friends there -- along with a Sun Valley rebuild and tons of advice from Klink in my case. Even now, "buttery" only happens once the fluid warms up. Thankfully that's fairly quick with all that engine heat in the 500E bay. I figured a 22 year old vacuum modulator could use changing on GP, so I may as well upgrade to the AMG one at the same time.

I'm told the .6 TCU in the S55 (not sure about the other models) cuts back on torque between shifts as protection (my mechanic owns an SL55), so I'm not sure how quick or firm that will ever be. And judging by the way the M3 snaps necks (and backs for that matter) when it shifts on the firm settings, I'm not even sure I want that in the S55. I think I'm sure that I don't want it, but I'm not a track guy the way you and Jono are.

Respectfully bows and tips hat...

maw

 

[jhodg5ck]

I want the 722.3 to shift buttery smooth at light throttle, and quick/firm at full throttle. My experimenting has always resulted in too-firm light throttle shifts when the pressure is bumped up, and/or the Superior springs are added to firm up a particular shift. More annoying is that I can maybe get one or two of the shifts acceptable, but the third ends up being annoying. Fix the third and it hurts the other two, etc etc. I know, I know, I need a fully rebuilt trans; this would (well, should) cure the discrepancies.

The 722.6 is able to achieve what I described above (well, to a point anyway, the WOT shifts are good but not exactly "firm" in my tired 722.6).

I've never driven a .3 that has that... it's simply not that Smart. Even my AMG boxes, they are FIRM across the board. You Need electronic controls if you want lexus smooth around town and ultra Crisp @ WOT.

 

[gsxr]

I've never driven a .3 that has that... it's simply not that Smart. Even my AMG boxes, they are FIRM across the board.

Best 722.3 I've driven was in the black 500E that I sold to Dan a couple years ago. That box was rebuilt by Laurent de Give (not clear if it was subbed out), and it shifted reaaally nice even with 50kmi behind a 6L. I wish I could get all my 722.3's to work that well - it was enough to keep me happy!

I haven't yet tried Type F fluid, but I plan to give that a whirl in our green E500 project next year. MAW, FYI... Red Line "Racing ATF" is Type F. IMO, it's basically a thicker Dex-3 fluid (like their High Temp) with no friction modifiers. I expect some fiddling will be needed via modulator and maybe springs to get it sorted.

You Need electronic controls if you want lexus smooth around town and ultra Crisp @ WOT.

Right! I wish we could tweak the 722.6 factory TCU to do this. I'm sure it's possible via software. Did RENNtech offer any TCU mods with such wizardry for older models (W210, or maybe W211)?

 

[jhodg5ck]

Best 722.3 I've driven was in the black 500E that I sold to Dan a couple years ago. That box was rebuilt by Laurent de Give (not clear if it was subbed out), and it shifted reaaally nice even with 50kmi behind a 6L. I wish I could get all my 722.3's to work that well - it was enough to keep me happy!

I haven't yet tried Type F fluid, but I plan to give that a whirl in our green E500 project next year. MAW, FYI... Red Line "Racing ATF" is Type F. IMO, it's basically a thicker Dex-3 fluid (like their High Temp) with no friction modifiers. I expect some fiddling will be needed via modulator and maybe springs to get it sorted.




Right! I wish we could tweak the 722.6 factory TCU to do this. I'm sure it's possible via software. Did RENNtech offer any TCU mods with such wizardry for older models (W210, or maybe W211)?

According to hartmut TCU tune on a .6 was a waste of $ as it tunes itself...

Larry used TBR's when I spoke to him last. Ron only does stock builds...no Mods

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[whipplem104]

There is very little anyone can do with the factory .6 tcu. Some tuners have gotten diff ratios and raised shift points and a little on the pressures but not much.
The new tcu I have coming out will be basically able to do anything. We have independent pressure targets for each stage of the shift based on torque and the desired shift time with independent upshift and downshift tables and garage shifts. So pretty much the same as the factory. On top of that it is all amperage based so it is incredibly consistent in comparison to the fluid temp tables of the current system. A lot less to compromise on but a lot more from the tuning end. But the big thing should be given a set cal for a particular application and the same transmission it should be really easy to do identical setups with absolute consistency. It has adapatives to take care of small changes.
Right now we are not going to have it available for the older me1,me2.0-2.1 cars. But me2.8 and up are a go. And of course standalone swaps.

 

[gsxr]

Right now we are not going to have it available for the older me1,me2.0-2.1 cars. But me2.8 and up are a go. And of course standalone swaps.

Figures... I've got ME 1.0 in mine.

 

[maw1124]

A friend is a Eurocharged dealer in the states, and he did a project S55 as a demo car -- headers, catless exhaust, 180mm crank pulley w/wrap kit, ECU and TCU tunes. I drove it for a weekend as part of my ongoing attempt to figure out what mods I wanted on mine (and just for kicks).

First, the car was a beast -- all AMG and no S to me. It sounded and felt like it should be somewhere other than the street. Probably the way HWA would have wanted it if not for Mercedes stepping in with trivial concerns like everyday drivability, reliability and what not. "Maybe on an E or an SL, but not on an S" was the way I felt about it.

Second, I couldn't tell what the TCU tune added except maybe a higher redline -- again, something that felt strange in that car. And that's a strong maybe. Seemed like a gimmick waste of money.

As "computing" has gotten cheaper and easier to do, and given the money that MB throws at them, I'm loathe to go throwing aftermarket code at them. Maybe in the ECU, but I couldn't detect any worthwhile change in how the transmission behaved. It was still a bit slow and ponderous compared to the M3, which somehow just seemed right to me.

There's a fine but essential balance that MB AMG strikes with the gearing in these cars. I think Jono's suggestion of a modified differential in the 55k cars makes more sense than anything. You're talking $500 for a TCU tune vs. $1500 for hardware that really makes a difference. If they hook up better coming out of a turn, that's probably fine. From the factory they just light up the nanny controls with anything other than feather throttle out of a turn. I have no experience with non-AMG .6 treatments, although I'd like to change that at some point.

maw

 

[jouniu]

MAW brings up a good point... does anyone build VB's for the 722.3 / M119? You can only do so much via modulator pressure, kickdown, and Superior kit...

Here in finland are some small companies that modify valvebodies for .3 and .6 and modify torque converters and clutch packs. They are mostly used insane OM606 super turbo setups that have ~1000Nm Tq.

 

[500AMM]

His use is storage

He, He - you're right Martin.
This car has been a garage queen for a long time, it's driven 7.200 km since I bought it Oct. 21st. 2007. It is on the limit to categorize as long term storage, just kept warm from time to time. On the other hand it has been a good mileage save up until the beast is fully let off. So keep safe distance Martin - young lads like you can easily be sucked into the air cleaner!

Remind me of how much power you are making and I can certainly point you in the right direction on all of this. Also how is the car used? Drag racing with slicks or just street use?

Thanks a lot for the information, both from you and others here.

The power is a question and I don't have any valid Dynos. I did an abortive attempt back in 2010 where the supercharger belt left the building on the very first run. It is a toothed Gates belt and the teeth was entirely ripped off and sucked up around the air filter unit, it appeared like a terrified cat stuffed behind the headlight. Dyno runs is a money thing here in Morepay as anything else, so the 400 bucks blown out the window didn't inspire me to go back at that point of time. However and FWIW, I have a sales prospect back from 2007 saying 580hp - 780Nm. The car was at that time maintained by the tuning shop Rusconi & Ulz Autotechnik in Zürich, Switzerland. Additionally I have been on phone with König Specials (KS) who did the supercharging and transmission tweaks, and we talked about the alleged power, reliability, maintenance etc..

KS claimed their SC kit for the 6.0 M119 gave up to 520hp - 730Nm. AFAIK they didn't include any intercooling, so that has been added on my car at a point later, probably by Rusconi & Ulz Autotechnik. It is a tiny air/air intercooler w/o fans, so I'm not sure how much it gains, but based on common anticipation it could raise the power to the said 580Hp - 780Nm. I have never driven a car with such output, so I don't have any comparable references. The only feedback I have is from another person that drove my car - who has also driven the Brabus 6.5 here in Norway. That Brabus has 450-465Hp and it was no doubt that my car was more powerful. It is some supercharged 6.0 SLs around too, so based on what I have seen and the above experience it should pull well beyond 500Hp.

I have been debating for a long time about a complete standalone engine management, and I've discussed this with a couple of reliable Norwegian tuners. One of them has built the other supercharged 6.0 here in Norway, housing an ASA supercharger and Electromotive standalone. It has OE 6.0 AMG cams, ported and headers, and the first rough set-up put north of 600hp without too much hassle. It is a lot of unleashed power just from the standalone itself, but for me it is another reason too - engine safety! My 6.0 is converted by AMG using OE parts, so for me it is a kind of an historical treasure, so my intention is to conserve the engine as much as possible while it's ran in tuned condition.

The ROI is normally quite low on any tuning, but todays technology develops fast and makes tuning easier and more reliable year by year. It is easy to make glory plans, but it has its price and must be paid for, so I have to take this in steps over a long time. But to conclude on the power I shoot for minimum 600Hp - 800Nm, so the 722.6, diff. and shafts must take that. I have no fixed plans for track & drag racing on a regular basis. I guess it will happen from time to time, but it will mainly be a street car. I prefer firm shifting in front of slush/comfort, and your tuning experience on the 722.6 valve body sounds promising for finding a satisfactoy setting.

That was the summary, and I guess we can share technical information on the run in this thread, but I prefer that a great part of the communication goes on Email and phone when it comes to a reality. PM sent.


-a-

 

[whipplem104]

Ok well 600hp 800nm is not that much. I am not saying that everything in your car is pretty much bullet proof at those power levels but it is darn close. A stock 722.6 from a late model v8 donor would be more than able to handle this. I do like to tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs as it makes them easier to tune for not having tq management and crisper shift response times. But it is not necessary. Also a simple mod to the valve body for the 3-4 shift is necessary. If you run standalone fuel injection then a timing retard or cut feature works wonders to making shifts quick and smooth. And the transmission likes it as well. The rest of the will be fine as long as you are not planning on drag racing with slicks on so there is no tire spin. Actually I think the v8 driveline if fresh is fine anyways.

 

[pagodino]

As I have my car converted to a Getrag 265 my final drive is 0.87, tis is quite near to the E50 gearbox but the W210 has a final diff ratio of 3.06. The 2.82 in combination with the 5th is good for the Autobahn but the 3.06 could be the perfct choise for me. Is there a 3.06 compatible with the 500E?

Best PAgodino

 

[gsxr]

Is there a 3.06 compatible with the 500E?

Yes, found in some years of 124.051 with optional ASR, but very difficult to locate in USA. Not sure how hard it is to find one in Europe.

 

[Christian_K]

Who says TCU mods dont do anything on 722.6 boxxes? Are you kidding me? The current Eurocharged TCU tunes have more than 145 alterations over the Stock 55/600/65 AMG TCUs. They have multiple stages of firmness, last year they sold one of their more aggressive stages to Buckhead Imports of Atlanta (BIP), that recently stopped business with tuning (But Tony Lawshee is still around and stepping in), and the People were blown away by the BIP TCU tunes. Firmer shifts, still smooth on part part-throttle and especially during "C" mode. Eurocharged can list and will change any value for your TCU tune that you like.
I know a guy from germany with which i had contact in the past. He put a 55Kompressor engine in his W210 E55. He used the SL65AMG Gearbox with the TCU from the CLK DTM AMG. The TCU according to him made the gearbox quicker with shifts, reaction to steering wheel paddle inputs and so forth. Also its the only TCU that stores the selected gearbox mode for the next start. So when you stop your car in "M" mode, and come back and restart it is still in "M" mode.

BTT:
I really want a 722.6 in my 500E. My 500E Box will getting either replaced by another 722.370 or a 722.6 next year or the year after. I hat the 722.3xx boxxes... Once you drive the 722.6 boxes in two of your cars on a daily bases, and then drive the other two cars with 722.3xx boxes, you want to vomit ^^ xD
The C140 behaves just so perfectly...*dream* I wish i could have that driveline 1:1 in my 500E. Also the Torque of the C140 seems to be more when within low RPMs. So when you start with full-throttle in my C140 S500Coupe, it pulls you nice into the seats and causes a slight tingle in my belly, that not even the super-brutal CL55AMG seems to achieve.
Maybe its because when i start with full throttle in both my 500E or CL55AMG, tires will break loose and ASR/ESP indicators will flash up to 100kph, while the C140 has not enough Power or is to heavy to break loose the tires, but instead gets all power on the streets. Hard to describe, but i want it in my 500E. Not to speak of the super good shifts... its really an overall upper class feeling from the driveline alone on my C140.

 

[Taxi Driver]

"I really want a 722.6 in my 500E. My 500E Box will getting either replaced by another 722.370 or a 722.6 next year or the year after. I hat the 722.3xx boxxes... Once you drive the 722.6 boxes in two of your cars on a daily bases, and then drive the other two cars with 722.3xx boxes, you want to vomit ^^ xD
The C140 behaves just so perfectly...*dream* I wish i could have that driveline 1:1 in my 500E. Also the Torque of the C140 seems to be more when within low RPMs. So when you start with full-throttle in my C140 S500Coupe, it pulls you nice into the seats and causes a slight tingle in my belly, that not even the super-brutal CL55AMG seems to achieve"

Just my intention, 722.6 behind the 6liter, just like the E50 but as an E60, like you I say, the 5speeder really is an achievment over .3 4speeder.
How are you going to manage the .6, aftermarket TCU? wich one? wonder if the oem TCU could be converted to operate *stand alone*?

PS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6GRsnDIvUc or what?

 

[gsxr]

... wonder if the oem TCU could be converted to operate *stand alone*?

I don't think anyone has figured out how to use the OEM TCU as standalone, or there would be a lot more people with 722.6 conversions. I believe the OEM TCU expects CAN data from the ME computers, and the data elements needed may not be available from the LH, or may not be available via simulation either. Russell probably knows a lot more about this than I do...

 

[500AMM]

I've only heard about the two aftermarket TCU controllers, which has been discussed in this thread. Here they are:

- http://soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/

- http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=3701&highlight=ole+fejer I haven't found any website, this is the only link I'm aware of

I am not sure which one is best ATM. I've seen some videos of Ole Fejers controller installed, but it seems like the RPM increase a bit during the shifting, but is that safe at WOT?

 

[whipplem104]

Well, few things. 1st is that of course a .6 will respond to tuning. It is just that what can be done is limited. I know it has come along in the last couple of years but it is still fairly limited and frankly not 100% reliable to take. There are many posts on this. Early cars with egs51 are pretty much not able to be tuned. At the end of the day there are things that the tuners cannot do.
On the PCS standalone you have complete control of pressures and shift points to dictate what ever map you want. Two calibrations with on the fly switching and a true manual mode. And you can put it in what ever you want and there are no tq limiters to worry about.
Factory tcu swap for conversions.
This is something that I may come out with in the future. The problem is really how to build a tq map to tell it the correct info. The factory takes tps and engine tq from the engine management and other parameters to decide how and when to shift. The tq model is hard to reproduce without taking the engine out and putting it on a dyno and running through all rpm load points. It can be done but it is hard. It is better to use a factory ecu with the factory tcu as this has all been done for you.
I am doing this right now with a GM 6l80e behind a 1971 chevy small block using tps and rpm to build a tq map to run the factory tcu. Very time consuming and you have to look at how the factory tcu is responding to the inputs to see if you are under or over reporting tq.

 

[Taxi Driver]

I don't think anyone has figured out how to use the OEM TCU as standalone, or there would be a lot more people with 722.6 conversions. I believe the OEM TCU expects CAN data from the ME computers, and the data elements needed may not be available from the LH, or may not be available via simulation either. Russell probably knows a lot more about this than I do...

Yes what I am afraid of too but the adaptive mode could be deleted, maybe but I'm not a computer guy sorry to say.......

 

[Taxi Driver]

I've only heard about the two aftermarket TCU controllers, which has been discussed in this thread. Here they are:

- http://soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/

- http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=3701&highlight=ole+fejer I haven't found any website, this is the only link I'm aware of

I am not sure which one is best ATM. I've seen some videos of Ole Fejers controller installed, but it seems like the RPM increase a bit during the shifting, but is that safe at WOT?

That raised rpm, I had on the transm. I replaced, due to a clutch slippage/wear. the *flash* that occured because the overlap time between gears
took too long to able the lutch to engage fully. Maybe the timing between gears were too generous, therefore the slippage/raised rpm?

 

[gsxr]

Well, few things. 1st is that of course a .6 will respond to tuning. It is just that what can be done is limited. I know it has come along in the last couple of years but it is still fairly limited and frankly not 100% reliable to take. There are many posts on this. Early cars with egs51 are pretty much not able to be tuned. At the end of the day there are things that the tuners cannot do.

I'm pretty sure my 1997 210.072 has EGS 5.1 and I kinda figured there was little, if any, tuning possible.

Factory tcu swap for conversions.
This is something that I may come out with in the future. The problem is really how to build a tq map to tell it the correct info. The factory takes tps and engine tq from the engine management and other parameters to decide how and when to shift. The tq model is hard to reproduce without taking the engine out and putting it on a dyno and running through all rpm load points. It can be done but it is hard. It is better to use a factory ecu with the factory tcu as this has all been done for you.

You read my mind... this is exactly what I was wondering about. My 210.072 appears to have a stock TCU and the version code is stock as well. I've been suspicious that the TCU can't adjust enough to the power increase from the 6.0L motor, a couple of the adaptation values are pegged at -210, see attached photos. I don't know if it's from worn mechanical parts (friction discs, bands, etc) or just incorrect TCU maps for the power output. Would a factory TCU from an M120 car (i.e, 129.076) be similar enough to the 6L M119 torque curves, or at least better than the stock 4.2L curve?

 

[whipplem104]

Adapt numbers in nm mean it has a push or a pull in the shift. Imagine a perfect shift is like a cvt transmission. The computer is targeting a seamless shift. If the number is neg then it is seeing a push or acceleration on the shift. If it is positive then it is decel. This can happen from overlap or binding. What is really important to clutch pack health is the fill times. You can see your k2 and k3 are high. These clutches are wearing out. 15 is the limit. After that you will see the nm numbers start to push further positive and longer shifts and more tq management. You are not ready yet but probably getting close to needing a rebuild. If you have not already do a transmission service. Reset the adapts. See what comes back.
I would guess by the neg numbers that the transmission was set up for the 6.0 swap and has some modifications. Only a guess though.

 

[Christian_K]

I've only heard about the two aftermarket TCU controllers, which has been discussed in this thread. Here they are:

- http://soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/

- http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=3701&highlight=ole+fejer I haven't found any website, this is the only link I'm aware of

I am not sure which one is best ATM. I've seen some videos of Ole Fejers controller installed, but it seems like the RPM increase a bit during the shifting, but is that safe at WOT?

The PCS is located here and its called TCM-2000 + 722.6 Harness: https://www.powertraincontrolsoluti...on_Products/TCM-2000_Transmission_Controller/
Read their manual... omg... https://www.powertraincontrolsoluti...ownload.php?file=TCU_Master_Manual_rev2.1.pdf

The Ole fejer controller is located here: http://ofgear.dk/
Manual: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_WiBay-rg3oWv8VhuVyUuVJ-f22PwEzD5N_LuAQHUNI/edit

We need to get this done the next 2,3 years. Seriously. But our ECU needs Data from Gearbox such as Selector position, Overload-protection (if it can be simulated by these stand alone TCUs with their various output possibilities). EDIT: We really need to get this done. I can get E420 W210 Gearboxes for 150€! Wow. Completely new ones including new TQ for 1500€. That sounds all good.

Mr. Whipple will you offer something similar? Maybe you can work together with any of the above listed two suppliers?

 

[gsxr]

Adapt numbers in nm mean it has a push or a pull in the shift. Imagine a perfect shift is like a cvt transmission. The computer is targeting a seamless shift. If the number is neg then it is seeing a push or acceleration on the shift. If it is positive then it is decel. This can happen from overlap or binding. What is really important to clutch pack health is the fill times. You can see your k2 and k3 are high. These clutches are wearing out. 15 is the limit. After that you will see the nm numbers start to push further positive and longer shifts and more tq management. You are not ready yet but probably getting close to needing a rebuild. If you have not already do a transmission service. Reset the adapts. See what comes back.
I would guess by the neg numbers that the transmission was set up for the 6.0 swap and has some modifications. Only a guess though.

Russell, thanks for the info - I did not know the fill time limit was 15, or that this indicated worn clutch packs. I suspected the tranny was in need of a rebuild but I'm trying to avoid investing in this particular car. Most shifts are OK, it's just a bit lazy at WOT, particularly the 2-3 WOT upshift. The data you see is probably 5-10kmi after a trans service with Red Line D4 fluid, resetting adaptation after the fluid change. This car had a rough life before I got it, arrived with brown/yellow fluid and no filter at all (PO must have gone to a clueless shop at some point), doing all sorts of weird flaring due to fluid starvation. I was surprised it went to 90% normal with fluid & filter and re-adapting.

After this, in an attempt to firm up the WOT shifts, I tried the blue-top AMG solenoids. After adapting, this did help the WOT shifts, but as I'm sure you know the part throttle shifts firmed up a bit more than I wanted, and the closed-throttle downshifts are just plain awful... unacceptable to me. I don't have screen shots of the new adaptation but there's a lot of -210 numbers, although the fill times are down to single digits. Due to the downshifts, I'm swapping back to stock solenoids before winter.

Sure wish you lived closer, I'd have you rebuild the darn thing for me!!

UPDATE: I added screen shots of the TCU version coding info.

 

[whipplem104]

Christian,
I sometimes forget to mention this but I am the PCS dealer for the 722.6. My business name was mentioned above. They would just refer you to me.
As far as simulating outputs that is absolutely possible. There are extra pwm and digital outputs. It is just a matter of setting them up to give out the correct info. Since the things you listed are fairly simple resistance values and on and offs it could easily be done. I would have to refresh on the n/s switch. I know it has some other settings for other purposes and we would probably just simulate what was necessary. Default D position or something. The timing retard is simply on off with different resistance values. Set to go off during a gear change. This could also be eliminated if wanted with a resistor.

 

[M104-AMG]

Has anyone measured the A/F ratios between 75-85 mph at cruise idle for the 034 and 036 ?

I'm wondering if the factory tune is just too rich for an 036 with either a 2.24 or 2.65 diff, hence the reason for poor gas mileage even with the lower revs of those diffs.

I know with the aftermarket ECU on my FD RX7, and a proper tune, my A/F ratios swung from 11's to a high of 22 when cruising at no load, which translates to 6mpg @ track, 10-12 city, and a high of 24-26 on the highway.

neil