TRANSMISSION WHINE

[r44raven]

Lately (and in fact, shortly after a transmission oil/filter change), my 500e has developed a mild (what I think is a) transmission whine. It seems to be related to engine speed, rather than overall speed of the car.

In 2nd and 3rd gear, it starts around 1500 rpm, and disappears around 2250 rpm, but in 4th it starts around 2250 rpm and disappears around 2750 rpm. It only occurs on acceleration, and becomes slightly more prominent on a long journey when the engine/transmission has thoroughly warmed through.

Gearbox mileage is around 95k.

Any thoughts to the cause, anyone?.

 

[JC220]

Do you know what the ATF was the garage used Stephen? (Brand and type) Did you supply it?

Or maybe the garage have records of what was used? That is useful information in particular if the noise only began post filter and fluid change.

 

[daantjie]

Make triple sure the fill level is right, this is always the first go - to in case of trans issues.

 

[r44raven]

Do you know what the ATF was the garage used Stephen? (Brand and type) Did you supply it?

Or maybe the garage have records of what was used? That is useful information in particular if the noise only began post filter and fluid change.

Interesting point. The transmission service was first carried out by my local (non-MB) independent. Transmission fluid used was Castrol TQ-D 111. That work proved faulty (transmission sump was bent on refitting due to over-tightening of the retaining bolts, causing a minor leak), so my local MB independent then fitted a new sump, and at the same time filled with new fluid. At this point, I don't know what fluid was used, but I'm pretty sure, knowing the indi as I do, that it would have been genuine MB fluid.

 

[r44raven]

Do you know what the ATF was the garage used Stephen? (Brand and type) Did you supply it?

Or maybe the garage have records of what was used? That is useful information in particular if the noise only began post filter and fluid change.

My MB indi tells me he used genuine MB ATF. He did not elaborate further.

 

[JC220]

My MB indi tells me he used genuine MB ATF. He did not elaborate further.

That doesn't tell us much really. There are several versions of genuine MB ATF so there is a chance the wrong fluid is in there now - MB bottles or not!

If it were me I would source what I know is the correct fluid and change it myself that way there is no mystery as to the correct fluid being in there. And get the 500E version filter with 2no inlets.

 

[r44raven]

Thanks Joe! Any chance you know the part nos. for the correct fluid and the filter?

 

[JC220]

Thanks Joe! Any chance you know the part nos. for the correct fluid and the filter?

Fuchs Titan 4000 ATF is the only fluid I use in my 722.3s Stephen - Opie Oils can send that mail order in England.

For the filter - A1292770195

See Gixer's Post below for description and photos-

Clunking/shaking from rear when new transmission shifts | Transmission and Driveline

I have just installed a newly rebuilt transmission from Sun Valley Transmissions. Because the transmission is new, the pressure in gear shifts (especially lower gears or going from drive to reverse or vice versa) is much higher than before. I am noticing a slightly delayed response from the car...

www.500eboard.co

Finally if there isn't a pan magnet in there already I would get one for it

 

[r44raven]

Hsving recommended to use genuine MB fliud, I'm interested to know why you're using a Fuchs ATF, or is it one approved by MB?

 

[JC220]

Hsving recommended to use genuine MB fliud, I'm interested to know why you're using a Fuchs ATF, or is it one approved by MB?

Fuchs ATF is what is in the MB bottles I believe. It is a german made ATF and yes it is approved for use in 722.3 transmissions.

But use MB if you prefer I am recommending the Fuchs because:

Used it for 10+ years in a dozen benzes and zero issues ever. Lovely shifting fluid- top spec.

MB dealers don't deal with w124s much now. Not all MB ATFs are suitable. There is a chance they could inadvertently provide the wrong or less ideal spec ATF. My MB dealer have done this to me in the past hence I source German Made Fuchs myself most of the time cheaper than MB bottled too. But I have read in several sources that Fuchs Titan IS the MB bottled ATF.

Your car your choice

 

[JC220]

@r44raven surely your service dude can give you the part number of the MB fluid he used?? That can then be checked for suitability

 

[r44raven]

No, he didn't! He just text me to say it was MB fluid. The invoice only lists "ATF fliud", without any further info.

 

[JC220]

No, he didn't! He just text me to say it was MB fluid. The invoice only lists "ATF fliud", without any further info.

Doesn't bode much confidence then does it?

You had your transmission serviced. You dont know what ATF spec was used. Now you have a new transmission whine.

First - check fluid level is correct when hot.

If it is then correct and whine resumes I suggest ruling out the wrong ATF before delving further into the issue.

 

[Etanox]

Could be air trapped in the canals . Making it whine.
At standstill selecting gears with 10 15 seconds interval between bleeding the system is a good to go. Sometimes the air bleeding nut on top of tranny gets stuck thus not letting air out of the system.

Hope this helps you out a bit .

Regards,

Etanox

 

[Eno]

A few years ago the MB dealer in Qatar checking with their service department in the WIS, issued me the following transmission fluid for my 1992 500E Midnight Blue with a 722.365 tranny as per photos attached.
For my 1991 500E Bornite Metallic at another time they issued me an older original fluid which I cannot find the details. I will search the invoices and get the part nr of the other tranny fluid.

 

[Eno]

The other original MB transmission oil applicable to older 722.3 transmissions I was issues by an official MB dealer was the below nr as per my invoice.
A001-989-21-03
Actual photo also attached in front.

 

[r44raven]

The other original MB transmission oil applicable to older 722.3 transmissions I was issues by an official MB dealer was the below nr as per my invoice.
A001-989-21-03
Actual photo also attached in front.

Thanks for that, Eno.
I'll keep everyone posted on developments!

 

[LWB250]

For what it's worth, I use the Febi 08971 fluid in 722.3/4 transmissions. Always worked great and it meets the MB specifications.

Automatic Transmission Fluid (1 Liter) - Febi 0009899203

Dan

 

[gsxr]

Dan, the FCP site says that Febi juice is "mineral based", i.e. non-synthetic... is that a typo? The price is certainly in synthetic territory!

 

[LWB250]

Dan, the FCP site says that Febi juice is "mineral based", i.e. non-synthetic... is that a typo? The price is certainly in synthetic territory!

You wait for their semi annual sale where they discount this about 25% or more and stock up. I've got a case of the stuff and I think I paid about $7/liter with shipping.

Yes, to the best of my knowledge it's mineral based.

It meets or exceeds the MB specs for the 722.3/4 so I am comfortable using it, plus it's approved for much older automatics of theirs as well. My 1965 220SEb (W111) used this, too

With FCP's lifetime warranty, when I'm up for the next fluid change I submit a warranty claim and get what I use replaced.

Dan

 

[r44raven]

The other original MB transmission oil applicable to older 722.3 transmissions I was issues by an official MB dealer was the below nr as per my invoice.
A001-989-21-03
Actual photo also attached in front.

After a lot of pushing and shoving by me, our local MB dealer eventually established the correct fluid for E550Es was 001 989 21 03, which I have now installed in my transmission.

As for the whine, it is now 80% quieter and is audible in the lower gears over a narrower rev range than before. However, it is still pretty obvious in 4th gear between 2250 and 2750 rpm, which strangely (?) is a higher rpm than in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears, where it is (now less) noticeable between 1500 and 2250 rpm.

Any more input would be gratefully received!

 

[gsxr]

001-989-21-03 is the original 236.10 spec, the last of the "thick" fluids, 7.5 cSt. It's basically a full-synthetic Dexron III (although MB went out of their way at the time to insist it was special magical fluid that was in no way related to Dex-III). And yes, this would be the closest match to the original spec for the 722.3 transmission.

However, I thought this stuff was NLA from MB, superceded to 001-989-68-03 which is 236.14 spec, thinner ~6.0 cSt, approximate equivalent to Dexron VI.

Do you know exactly what part number was poured into your transmission, since I don't think the dealer can obtain or sell 001-989-21-03 anymore? Unless they used aftermarket fluid, which would be fine... still available as "3403" from various mfr's, AFAIK.

 

[r44raven]

001-989-21-03 is the original 236.10 spec, the last of the "thick" fluids, 7.5 cSt. It's basically a full-synthetic Dexron III (although MB went out of their way at the time to insist it was special magical fluid that was in no way related to Dex-III). And yes, this would be the closest match to the original spec for the 722.3 transmission.

However, I thought this stuff was NLA from MB, superceded to 001-989-68-03 which is 236.14 spec, thinner ~6.0 cSt, approximate equivalent to Dexron VI.

Do you know exactly what part number was poured into your transmission, since I don't think the dealer can obtain or sell 001-989-21-03 anymore? Unless they used aftermarket fluid, which would be fine... still available as "3403" from various mfr's, AFAIK.

What I do know is that the garage which did the fluid change had great difficulty getting MB to pursue our request for fluid as per the part numbers in ENO's posrs. Eventually we were offered 001 989 21 03, and this is what is shown on my invoice.

I'll try and get a pic of the bottle it was supplied in.

 

[r44raven]

Mystery solved! MB supplied my indi with 001 989 68 03 - which they are saying supersedes 001 989 21 03 (so you were right, Dave!). The indi invoiced me for 001 989 23 01.
Can't say I'm too happy about not being informed, but its all a bit academic really.

 

[Kyiv]

You wait for their semi annual sale where they discount this about 25% or more and stock up. I've got a case of the stuff and I think I paid about $7/liter with shipping.

Yes, to the best of my knowledge it's mineral based.

It meets or exceeds the MB specs for the 722.3/4 so I am comfortable using it, plus it's approved for much older automatics of theirs as well. My 1965 220SEb (W111) used this, too

With FCP's lifetime warranty, when I'm up for the next fluid change I submit a warranty claim and get what I use replaced.

Dan

Do you for real ship used ATF back to them? I'm not judging, just curious

 

[gsxr]

FCP really does "warranty" used fluids! I don't know how they don't lose money doing this. The catch is, you have to pay to ship it back to them. And it has to be fluids you purchased from them previously:

FCP Euro Lifetime Auto Parts Replacement Guarantee | FCP Euro

Every product you buy from FCP Euro is guaranteed for life for your ownership of the vehicle. This lifetime replacement guarantee covers everything we sell, including wear-and-tear items like brake pads, gaskets, rotors, filters, and wiper blades.

www.fcpeuro.com

 

[gerryvz]

Recycling used fluids IMHO is one of those things where the effort, time and cost required to do so far outweighs any benefit. Far easier to just dispose of my used fluids at the county transfer point recycling center, and order up some new stuff on the Amazon with a few clicks.

 

[gsxr]

Using FCP's fluid warranty makes more sense if you live near them (low-cost return shipping), and/or are buying expensive fluids. Otherwise, the ROI is probably lousy, as Gerry says. They don't sell Red Line so it doesn't work for me.

 

[LWB250]

If I recall, FCP doesn't require the used fluid, just the containers. I've never tried this but seem to recall that was the arrangement.

 

[gsxr]

If I recall, FCP doesn't require the used fluid, just the containers. I've never tried this but seem to recall that was the arrangement.

In that case, there is even more incentive. Wow.

 

[gerryvz]

I'd rather spend the shipping money for empty containers to go recycle the oil at the county.

Besides, FCP Yurro doesn't sell Chevron DELO 400, Penn GradeOne, or RedLine oils. Which are the ones I use.

 

[gsxr]

They do sell Liqui-Moly lubes, which are good stuff. It could be a decent savings for people who rack up a lot of miles and change oil frequently (free replacement filter, too).

And ALWAYS recycle the used fluids locally! Most FLAPS/McParts will accept oil and ATF. I have to bring used antifreeze and brake fluid to the county collection stations; so I just wait until I have 15-20 gallons cluttering up the shop and make a trip into the big city to recycle it all at once. Which ends up being every couple years or so.

 

[gerryvz]

My county has three different collection stations, so I take my pick.

The few times I've ever taken used oil to a McFLAPs store, they have seemed fairly reluctant, as if me doing the right thing was putting them out too much. So I'd rather just dispose of it myself. I did this in Texas as well.

 

[LWB250]

There's an Advance Auto near me that has a 500 gallon tank in the back. I knew the former manager there quite well, so whenever I showed up with my multiple cans of waste oil I just walked behind the counter, got a cart, went to the car, loaded up, and headed back to the tank. New employees are always befuddled by my behavior, but most of the folks working there know me so it's just business as usual for them.

There's another Advance Auto in the opposite direction from my house equally as close, but they have a tiny tank and it's often full.

Dan

 

[gerryvz]

I have a good friend in Texas who owns the shop in Spring, TX called GR Auto Care (which specialized in MBs). His tanks are across the parking lot from the main shop, and I had Larry's permission to drop by at any time and empty my oil and coolant into his tanks. Always used it as an opportunity to drop in and chat for an hour or two.

 

[laylasbenz]

Lately (and in fact, shortly after a transmission oil/filter change), my 500e has developed a mild (what I think is a) transmission whine. It seems to be related to engine speed, rather than overall speed of the car.

In 2nd and 3rd gear, it starts around 1500 rpm, and disappears around 2250 rpm, but in 4th it starts around 2250 rpm and disappears around 2750 rpm. It only occurs on acceleration, and becomes slightly more prominent on a long journey when the engine/transmission has thoroughly warmed through.

Gearbox mileage is around 95k.

Any thoughts to the cause, anyone?.

I too have a smooth whine attributable to speed of vehicle; could it be the natural song of the German 7G-Tronic transmission? I have only 59k on the car, always serviced, never abused. It almost sounds like low power steering fluid whine...on an '89 Camaro but not.

 

[Eno]

1992 500E

 

[lowman]

Lately (and in fact, shortly after a transmission oil/filter change), my 500e has developed a mild (what I think is a) transmission whine. It seems to be related to engine speed, rather than overall speed of the car.

In 2nd and 3rd gear, it starts around 1500 rpm, and disappears around 2250 rpm, but in 4th it starts around 2250 rpm and disappears around 2750 rpm. It only occurs on acceleration, and becomes slightly more prominent on a long journey when the engine/transmission has thoroughly warmed through.

Gearbox mileage is around 95k.

Any thoughts to the cause, anyone?.

Was there any solution to this ?

 

[r44raven]

Was there any solution to this ?

My first post on this subject was in early August 2020, and as I said in a further post later that same month, the whine had by then reduced significantly.

Now, some 5 years (and 20k miles) later, I think I can say that it has further reduced somewhat - or maybe (a) my hearing has deteriorated or (b) I have become less conscious of the noise? I am wondering if @Etanox had a point about trapped air - which may have slowly dispersed?

Suffice to say, it no longer bothers me - and as I haven't had any other untoward problems with the transmission thus far, I happy to leave it at that.

Sorry if this perhaps isn't the answer you wanted?

 

[lowman]

My first post on this subject was in early August 2020, and as I said in a further post later that same month, the whine had by then reduced significantly.

Now, some 5 years (and 20k miles) later, I think I can say that it has further reduced somewhat - or maybe (a) my hearing has deteriorated or (b) I have become less conscious of the noise? I am wondering if @Etanox had a point about trapped air - which may have slowly dispersed?

Suffice to say, it no longer bothers me - and as I haven't had any other untoward problems with the transmission thus far, I happy to leave it at that.

Sorry if this perhaps isn't the answer you wanted?

Well i was hoping for a more " specific solution,as this sound you described, is very much like a sound i experience in my 1991 500e.The " whine" can obviously be observed differently,(though i really feel we are experiencing the same sound),but your description of when it happens in the rev range, etc is spot on the sound in my car.
I suspect either oil pump, or torque converter..
So.. the only thing that was done to " rectify" the fault/sound on your car...was to introduce the correct spec oil? as it was filled with the incorrect oil at first?
And there is no noise coming from the transmission,,like the noise you experienced before?
I just really fail to understand how these two oils can make a transmission make a noise..and then stop making the noise..

 

[r44raven]

Well i was hoping for a more " specific solution,as this sound you described, is very much like a sound i experience in my 1991 500e.The " whine" can obviously be observed differently,(though i really feel we are experiencing the same sound),but your description of when it happens in the rev range, etc is spot on the sound in my car.
I suspect either oil pump, or torque converter..
So.. the only thing that was done to " rectify" the fault/sound on your car...was to introduce the correct spec oil? as it was filled with the incorrect oil at first?
And there is no noise coming from the transmission,,like the noise you experienced before?
I just really fail to understand how these two oils can make a transmission make a noise..and then stop making the noise..

Interesting that you are experiencing a similar whine in your 1991 500E - and that your thoughts are in the direction of oil pump or torque converter.

However, I think you may have misunderstood the effect (or lack of it) when changing the transmission fluids? At the time of the initial fluid/filter change, the car was filled with Castrol TQ-D 111, but then within a few days (when the fluid leak was discovered), the sump pan was replaced, and the transmission was then filled with MB fluid 001 989 68 03. This change did not cure the whine, which continued for some weeks before then reducing somewhat.

As previously posted, as there have been no further (unpleasant!) developments over the last years - and as the whine has reduced further - I haven't been too concerned to investigate further. Maybe it is in fact, the oil pump or the torque converter? But whatever, with the passing of the years, I feel I can ignore it?

 

[lowman]

Interesting that you are experiencing a similar whine in your 1991 500E - and that your thoughts are in the direction of oil pump or torque converter.

However, I think you may have misunderstood the effect (or lack of it) when changing the transmission fluids? At the time of the initial fluid/filter change, the car was filled with Castrol TQ-D 111, but then within a few days (when the fluid leak was discovered), the sump pan was replaced, and the transmission was then filled with MB fluid 001 989 68 03. This change did not cure the whine, which continued for some weeks before then reducing somewhat.

As previously posted, as there have been no further (unpleasant!) developments over the last years - and as the whine has reduced further - I haven't been too concerned to investigate further. Maybe it is in fact, the oil pump or the torque converter? But whatever, with the passing of the years, I feel I can ignore it?

But did you not change the 001989 6803 oil after that was filled?= Cause that is not the correct oil for our transmissions....Maybe i misunderstood that..and that this oil is what was the final fill oil...Which then again after....the sound has been less prominent?
Well... im not sure if i misunderstood the effect....its more like you said " it was solved",,but not really a " solution"..other than symptom beeing less after some time..?
with that said..i have a " whine"...that is possible to make appear in park and neutral....at around 1600-2500 revs. The same sound will appear when driving,,,in the same " rev range"....So the speed of the car itself, is "irrelevant"....
FunFact:The sound is not overwhelming really,but with this car beeing totally stock when it comes to exhaust,you kinda hear everything else multiplied.So..the absence of exhaust sound is quite a new thing to me,...since both my old w124 500e...had somewhat not standard exhaust..and my w210 e50 Amg has a louder exhaust than the standard w124. 500e exhaust...