Engine oil recommendations

[Lynch]

Dave, I first came across the 300V when I wanted something better for my BMW N54. I was under warranty for it so I still haven't tried a different oil for it aside from the free dealership fills.
I also wanted to put on a lot of race-specific components like adjustable rear toe arms or mono-ball bushings thinking "race" must be better - both these do not have rubber dust boots to protect them from street grime. I learned it isn't always smart to put race components on street cars because race components are made to be higher performance at the cost of durability.

Everyone I spoke with suggested that I avoid all sort of "race-built" components, including engine oils because of 1) small increase in benefits over 5W40 X-Cess but with a much higher (200% cost and shorter OCI) cost for the oil, 2) difficult to source, can only get it from local performance/tuner shops, 3) recommended shorter OCI - now I did read that someone had a decent UOA result from using 300V in this thread, but I like to err on the side of caution.

With all that said, I still would really like the benefits of 100% Ester and have a lot of faith in Motul and their engine oils. They've always ran well on all my of cars and bikes.
Unless I'm running the M119 at the Daytona 24 where every little gain matters and I'm changing out the oil frequently, I don't think I'll be going with 300V.

The Sport 5W40 is a different story on its own. If they're using 300V grade base oil and better additives for daily/street usage, even if the price is around the same as 300V, I can see it as a much safer and better choice to get more performance/reliability with lower risk.

The other great choice of course would be Redline for 100% ester.

I know you recommend Redline, and I am more than happy to consider it, I simply don't know too much about it.
From what I've read, they do change up their formulation a lot. If I read the forums regarding 5W40, sometimes it will be their old formulation, other times people report that the "new" (or current formulation at the time of posting) 5W40 was re-done for diesel. Speaking of diesel, people also say BMW LL-04 diesel spec is also great for LL-01 requirements (gas spec) due to the exemption from lower ZDDP environmental regulations, but then again I don't know how accurate these second-hand accounts are.

You make a great point that if the car isn't driven in the winter, then we could use a higher winter SAE like 10W40. I've always used 0W or 5W in Vancouver because we get occasional snow/ice in the winter. I have no intentions of driving the W124.036 in the winter so I hope 10W40 would be a better choice.

More importantly, do you have any updated information regarding the Redline weights and their additives/formula? I'm interested in 5W30, 5W40, 10W30, 10W40 but I realize Redline is not only about the weight as they customize each blend to be specialized. I just would like to know if there is one that is more suitable for our cars, something that is great for gas, good all-around, for M113/M119. Have you compared any of these?

 

[Lynch]

Another thought came to mind, the Redline XW40 weights including 5W40, 10W40 have a slightly higher viscosity at 4.4 compared to Motul X-cess 5W40 (3.7), Sport 5W40 (4.0), 300V 5W40 (4.1), 300V 10W40 (4.2), would the higher viscosity be more likely to cause engine damage?

Regardless, going forward, I feel the need to start collecting my used oil to send to Blackstone for analysis, but would love to hear if anyone can advise me on this.

 

[gsxr]

I learned it isn't always smart to put race components on street cars because race components are made to be higher performance at the cost of durability.

This is 1000% accurate! And it applies to "race" oils as well... serious race-only oils are generally expected to be run in cars without catalysts, and often have ZDDP levels that will damage/plug catalysts.

More importantly, do you have any updated information regarding the Redline weights and their additives/formula? I'm interested in 5W30, 5W40, 10W30, 10W40 but I realize Redline is not only about the weight as they customize each blend to be specialized.

The main change I'm aware of with Red Line additive packages was for their diesel-specific oils years ago. This was to prevent issues with particulate traps on many newer diesel engines. However, many of their oils still carry an older SAE diesel rating (CF, or similar) making them suitable for older diesel engine use, with the higher ZDDP / moly. I asked Red Line about this a few years ago, specifically about using their 10W-40 CF-rated oil in my 1987 300D with OM603 turbodiesel. They said it would be perfect, no need for the 5W-40 or 15W-40 which is more commonly used in diesels. IIRC, for an older diesel you generally want to avoid anything with a CJ rating or newer (CK, etc) as those are the emissions-friendly, reduced-additive oils.

I've seen some variation in the additives from VOA's people have posted over the years, and even some variation in my own UOA's, but it's hard to pin down exact data on the additives since they don't publish specs on ZDDP or moly levels. AFAIK, the 10W-40 still has politically incorrect levels of both ZDDP and moly.

Another thought came to mind, the Redline XW40 weights including 5W40, 10W40 have a slightly higher viscosity at 4.4 compared to Motul X-cess 5W40 (3.7), Sport 5W40 (4.0), 300V 5W40 (4.1), 300V 10W40 (4.2), would the higher viscosity be more likely to cause engine damage?

The slight difference in viscosity you mention is, IMO, absolutely not worth worrying about. There is zero concern about engine damage. Mercedes specifies a pretty wide range of acceptable viscosities.

Regardless, going forward, I feel the need to start collecting my used oil to send to Blackstone for analysis, but would love to hear if anyone can advise me on this.

You can always get some UOA's if you'd like to confirm the wear metals are low in a particular engine; compare to other people's UOA's for the same engine type (i.e., M119 vs M119, not vs M117, or M104, etc). You can either sample by pulling up via dipstick tube, or sample at oil change time (let it drain for a few seconds before collecting the sample).

I just would like to know if there is one that is more suitable for our cars, something that is great for gas, good all-around, for M113/M119. Have you compared any of these?

For the M113 and M119, I would use the 10W-40 as first choice, and 5W-40 as second choice. I would not use xW-30 in either one, but that's just me.


Red Line tech support is very good, shoot them an email or call them on the phone. They will be able to answer any questions you have and may even tell you the current additive levels in the viscosities you are looking at. I remember wanting to know the starting TBN, which they don't publish, and they were happy to tell me when I asked.

 

[Lynch]

Thanks Dave, just sent Redline a very long email.

Will report back if I learn anything new.

 

[Odessit86]

For the M113 and M119, I would use the 10W-40 as first choice, and 5W-40 as second choice. I would not use xW-30 in either one, but that's just me.

Hi everyone... Dave i just wonder ..Why would you use 10w-40 in M113 ? Its not gonna harm engine? As far as i know this engine has been engineered for 0w-40 or 5w-40... I am asking because i am noob ... in oil viscosity...)

 

[gsxr]

Hi everyone... Dave i just wonder ..Why would you use 10w-40 in M113 ? Its not gonna harm engine? As far as i know this engine has been engineered for 0w-40 or 5w-40... I am asking because i am noob ... in oil viscosity...)

I think the related question is, why would you not want to use 10W-40 in the M113?

If you own an M113, check the owner's manual package for oil specs. This will NOT be in the ±200 page owner's manual, it will be a separate insert, titled something like "Factory Approved Service Products". Look at Approved Engine oils section for the recommended MB spec sheets, something like 229.1, 229.3, or 229.5. It seems the spec sheet varies in different countries, and the .1 and .3 sheets both have 10W-40 viscosities listed. The 229.5 sheet lists as thin as 0W-30, and as thick as a 5W-40.

Anyway, the viscosity is mostly temperature-dependent, unless a specific engine requires only certain viscosities (example: the M156 explicitly requires 0W-40 or 5W-40).
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/224.1_en.html

The 2006 FASP flyer says to use 229.3/229.5 sheets for USA, and 229.3 has 10W-40 viscosity on there, allowed for as cold as -4°F / -20°C. Bottom line, outside the arctic circle, I'd have no issues using a quality 10W-40 viscosity in the M113. As mentioned previously, the thin oils (0W-anything) are almost always specified entirely for fuel economy reasons, to meet gov't requirements... not to make the engine last longer.

 

[Odessit86]

Thank you Dave.. What can cause Mobil 1 oil excessive consumption? I use to run pennzoil 5w-40 and I had like 1 qt in 1000 miles ... But I last time I switched to Mobil1 0w-40...( but i Never like Mobil1) and my oil consumption is 1.5 q in just. About 800 miles ... ( I herd from many people that mobil1 is evaporating real fast... Some say Mobil 1 is junk ..few years ago they changet the base stock.....

 

[Klink]

Just for information, if you have a M112/113 that is starting to use oil, check and clean your crankcase vent orfices at the left and right side valve covers. Have new hoses at the ready, as they will likely break apart when you attempt to remove them from the valve covers.

 

[gsxr]

Thank you Dave.. What can cause Mobil 1 oil excessive consumption? I use to run pennzoil 5w-40 and I had like 1 qt in 1000 miles ... But I last time I switched to Mobil1 0w-40...( but i Never like Mobil1) and my oil consumption is 1.5 q in just. About 800 miles ... ( I herd from many people that mobil1 is evaporating real fast... Some say Mobil 1 is junk ..few years ago they changet the base stock.....

There are a few possibilities:

1) Group III oils (what I refer to as "fake synthetics") will shear down earlier than Group IV/V oils ("real" synthetics), and an engine will start "burning" oil more rapidly beyond this point. This usually happens after about 5kmi or so, with normal consumption up to that point, then markedly increased consumption after that point, until you change the oil; then the cycle repeats. You didn't mention if your consumption is constant, i.e. is it consuming that much from the first 1000 miles after an oil change? Or only after ~5kmi?

2) It's tough to compare different viscosities. Could be the Penn 5W-40 was on the thicker side, and M1 0W-40 is on the thinner side, and the viscosity difference between the two may be responsible for the change in consumption rate. I'm not a fan of M1 either (more below) but next time, try M1 10W-40 "High Mileage" since it's cheap in 5qt jugs at Mall-Wart.

3) If the engine has mechanical issues, such as worn valve stem seals, or PCV issues, you may have consumption issues regardless of the oil type / viscosity used. See Klink's post above (thank you, Klink!). Your consumption rate is concerning, I would definitely use a thicker oil next time (10W-40, or possibly even 15W-40 if synthetic) and see if the consumption rate improves. With high consumption, avoid high-ZDDP oils which could contaminate the catalysts (i.e., Penngrade-1).


So, about Mobil-1... they quietly changed from Group IV/V base stocks to Group III about 15 years ago. Of course, this was not stated anywhere in spec sheets or advertising, and the price remained the same. They cheaped out on what was inside the bottle, relying on their good name/reputation, and sold an inferior product with the same name, at the same price. It took me YEARS to figure out why my cars were "burning" oil after 5-7kmi on a 10k OCI. After I figured out the reason, I was PISSED. Switching to a Group IV/V oil cured my "consumption problem", which was really an oil problem. You can't fight Big Oil, so the best I could do was vote with my wallet and not buy their products. I currently use Red Line gallon jugs from Summit Racing (free ship over $99). Mobil has since expanded and confused their offerings; I believe their "Extended Performance" line may be a Group IV/V since they peddle that as ok for 15kmi intervals... however they have nothing thicker than xW-30 which is not appropriate - IMO - for the M119 engine. Mobil-1 is still a perfectly cromulent oil if changed as if it were dino oil, meaning ~5kmi standard service, ~3kmi severe service. Ditto for Mobil-1 ATF, which is fine for the 722.3 transmission (actually all 722.x 4- or 5-speed transmissions), but I use Red Line ATF as well.

https://youtu.be/FcxsgZxqnEg?t=65

 

[Odessit86]

Thank you guys... Last summer I replaced Valve cover gaskets and breather covers with RTV sealant , breather hoses and Throttle body seal ring.... Thanks Klink.. )
I guess I have problem with Valve seals or with cylinders walls ;(

 

[Odessit86]

Dave I forgot... Yes it consuming first 1000k miles... and I never go above 5k....
Today I changed to liqui moly leichtlauf 5w-40.... Time will tell

 

[Klink]

Thank you guys... Last summer I replaced Valve cover gaskets and breather covers with RTV sealant , breather hoses and Throttle body seal ring.... Thanks Klink.. )
I guess I have problem with Valve seals or with cylinders walls ;(

That's not absolutely so. Just to clarify, are you talking about a M113 engine? What year? How many miles on it? Any oil leaks? If a M112/113, MANY people do the valve covers but neglect to clean the orfices inside the PCV hose attachment nipples...

 

[Odessit86]

That's not absolutely so. Just to clarify, are you talking about a M113 engine? What year? How many miles on it? Any oil leaks? If a M112/113, MANY people do the valve covers but neglect to clean the orfices inside the PCV hose attachment nipples...

Yes its M113.. I have 01 E430 4matic 127316 miles on it... no i dont have oil leaks.. last time i cleaned all covers real good and pcv holes too.. its was look like NEW when i done cleaned.... i follow by Ken Bergsma advice .. at the mercedessource.com

 

[gsxr]

Dave I forgot... Yes it consuming first 1000k miles... and I never go above 5k....
Today I changed to liqui moly leichtlauf 5w-40.... Time will tell

Sounds good - see what consumption is with the new juice. If there is not much difference, next time try 10W-40 or 15W-40. It absolutely will not hurt anything to try the thicker viscosity.

 

[Duh_Vinci]

Well, I can tell you this was very interesting 7 pages of reading, considering I'm new to m119.

I did not want to use any harsh detergents, but since the car been sitting not driven or started for 2 years, I've done 2 oil changes in about 100 miles of basic 10w40, just wanting to gently flush the motor. Next week I will do the final drain and refill it with the "permanent" oil for the next 2-3K miles.

I think that at this point, at 120K on this SL500 motor, and prior records showing dyno oil, I will stick with non-synthetics, and reading the pages of this tread, the choices of basics are down to these three 15W-40 oils

Delo 400 LE
Rotella T4
Delvac 1300

Delo 400 LE - not an easy find locally, so on to Rotella or Delvac. Both readily available to me on Walmart finest shelves, and from what I understand, Delvac and Rotella are very similar dyno oils, so I will try Delvac, and it is almost $10 cheaper for 2.5gal jugs at Walmart since I do like frequent oil changes.

Thanks for all interesting info in this thread, much learned indeed!

Regards,
D

 

[LWB250]

After reading this I'm wondering if on the next change on the 93 400E with 273k on the clock I would be better off going with Delo 400 LE 15W-40, especially with the temperatures we get in the summer? Not to mention it's far cheaper than Mobil1 and readily available at my local Dead Sam's.

Oil pressure is good on the car with M1 0W-40, nearly 2.5 bar at idle hot, right up to 3.0 bar as soon as you pass 1,000 rpm. Well within acceptable limits.

Hmm...

Dan

 

[gerryvz]

You can get 5-gallon pails of DELO 400 and Rotella at any Tractor Supply store, and there are plenty out there. I've seen and bought 2.5-gallon jugs of DELO at select Mall-Wart stores as well.

Definitely recommend DELO for its detergent properties. Will keep the inside of your motor nice and clean.

Been using it for years in my M104 engines. I've always done 2-3K OCIs, as this is a dino oil. If you want to see the results of long-term DELO use on the inside of an engine, check out my M104 Top-End Rebuild thread.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

After reading this I'm wondering if on the next change on the 93 400E with 273k on the clock I would be better off going with Delo 400 LE 15W-40, especially with the temperatures we get in the summer? Not to mention it's far cheaper than Mobil1 and readily available at my local Dead Sam's.

Oil pressure is good on the car with M1 0W-40, nearly 2.5 bar at idle hot, right up to 3.0 bar as soon as you pass 1,000 rpm. Well within acceptable limits.

Dan, what is the price difference? I generally see M-1 10W-40 in 5qt jugs for $26 at WM (link), which is about twice as much your typical gallon of 15W-40 juice... but is ok to ~5kmi intervals. Since you can leave it in twice as long, the cost ends up being a wash, and Group III is still better than dino. Group III stuff should still have excellent detergent properties and sludge resistance, it just can't withstand extended OCI's and is not ideal for severe service / racing (IMO).

 

[LWB250]

Dan, what is the price difference? I generally see M-1 10W-40 in 5qt jugs for $26 at WM (link), which is about twice as much your typical gallon of 15W-40 juice... but is ok to ~5kmi intervals. Since you can leave it in twice as long, the cost ends up being a wash, and Group III is still better than dino. Group III stuff should still have excellent detergent properties and sludge resistance, it just can't withstand extended OCI's and is not ideal for severe service / racing (IMO).

Delo 400 LE 15W-40 is under $30 for a 2-1/2 gallon jug at Dead Sam’s here. Best price on a 5 quart of M1 depending on the shenanigans between Amazon and Dead Sam is typically around $23-$26.

Considering that this car will be lucky to see 2500 miles/year if that the difference is probably marginal, at best.

However, new year’s change will probably be to M1 15W-50 just due to the climate. On previous high mileage M119s this made a difference at hot idle in warm months.

Dan

 

[gerryvz]

I was paying $25 a jug for 2.5 gallons of DELO 15W-40 at Mall-Wart when I lived in Texas.

Tractor Supply was selling 5-gallon pails for around $65-70, so the Mall-Wart stuff was much better priced for 2 jugs of the same oil.

HOWEVER, the 5-gallon buckets were EXCELLENT for storing used oil, and I kept two of them on hand for storage capacity of 10 gallons. And then I'd recycle it at my buddy's indy shop in Spring, TX.

Still need to find a worthy place to recycle here in MD. I'll probably just go with my friendly indy shop, Silver Star Service Center in Edgewater, MD.

Tractor Supply (stores in New Port Richey and Hudson, FL):
DELO link
Rotella link


Mall-Wart:
DELO 2.5 gallon jug link

 

[gsxr]

Just a heads-up on the latest diesel oils... the new CK rating may also mean further reduced ZDDP levels, to allow compatibility with the newer diesels that have soot particulate filters. CJ ratings were better (generally more ZDDP than CK), and from memory you have to go back to CI or CF to get the really good stuff.

Reduced ZDDP oil should not be a serious issue for the M119, but you would never want to use a low-ZDDP oil on the M117!

Be careful out there. Not all "diesel" oil is the same, and the newest stuff may not be good for old motors.

 

[gerryvz]

Correct. The reduced ZDDP levels in DELO 400 LE and Rotella-T 15W-40 diesel oils should not pose a problem for the M119 and M104 engines, but SHOULD NOT EVER be used in M103 and M117 and earlier engines with higher-friction, cam-follower valvetrain designs.

 

[LWB250]

I was paying $25 a jug for 2.5 gallons of DELO 15W-40 at Mall-Wart when I lived in Texas.

Tractor Supply was selling 5-gallon pails for around $65-70, so the Mall-Wart stuff was much better priced for 2 jugs of the same oil.

HOWEVER, the 5-gallon buckets were EXCELLENT for storing used oil, and I kept two of them on hand for storage capacity of 10 gallons. And then I'd recycle it at my buddy's indy shop in Spring, TX.

Still need to find a worthy place to recycle here in MD. I'll probably just go with my friendly indy shop, Silver Star Service Center in Edgewater, MD.

Tractor Supply (stores in New Port Richey and Hudson, FL):
DELO link
Rotella link


Mall-Wart:
DELO 2.5 gallon jug link

i believe the Delo is around $26 for a 2.5 gallon jug at my local Dead Sam’s based on one my oldest son just bought a week or so ago for his E300D.

No TS’ around here, I’m not rural enough. NPR and Hudson are over an hour away from me, and that’s a good thing.

Our local FLAPS take waste oil here. One of them has a 500 gallon waste oil tank, so they’re always able to take it in.

I have two old Topsiders without the pumps that are great for storing waste fluids. My vacuum extractor holds 8 quarts as well, so between the three I have about 7 gallons of storage available when necessary.

Dan

 

[gerryvz]

I've got a TS up the road about 15 miles in Glen Burnie, and it's close to my route to and from the Oracle Corp. office in Baltimore/Columbia, MD. I need to stop to get a 5-gal pail of DELO, as I threw away my two blue pails (empty) when I made the move from Texas.

 

[Duh_Vinci]

So just to clarify, I thought that the old version, Delo 400 LE is the one with the good/high ZDDP levels and the new Delo 400 SDE is the one re-formulated with reduced levels of ZDDP?

I went to 6 stores today after work, every store/shop have the "updated" 400 SDE, but then... Very odd location Autozone had 5 jugs of this:



And these 5 followed me home =) These were on sale too, $14.99 per gal/jug

... If you want to see the results of long-term DELO use on the inside of an engine, check out my M104 Top-End Rebuild thread.

Cheers,
Gerry

Oh I have, super tidy! Always a pleasure seeing a well taken care of engine!

Regards,
D

 

[gsxr]

Yup, looks like the old 400 LE (CJ rated) is still good stuff. 1300ppm zinc, 1200ppm phosphorus, both are healthy levels. The TBN is ok at 9.3, but that's more of a concern for extended drain intervals.
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=415568&docFormat=PDF


I was right, btw... the new 400 SDE (CK rated) has very low ZDDP levels: 800 zinc, 760 phosphorus, well below my personal comfort level. This is emissions-friendly stuff, not engine-friendly:
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=481951&docFormat=PDF

"Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 with ISOSYN Advanced Technology is an API CK-4 heavy duty engine oil specifically formulated for 2017 greenhouse gas (GHG 17) compliant diesel engines designed to meet lower CO2 emissions and improved fuel economy, in addition to EPA 2010 compliant low emission diesel engines with Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) systems."

 

[Duh_Vinci]

Great, so I got the good ole stuff, old stock Store manager said they are getting more next week, and will honor the price of this week, so I will stop by and get more. This stock of 400 LE will be depleted, and on to something else I guess...

I can't find the detail sheets with the same detail of zinc and phosphorus on Rotella T4 15W-40 or Delvac 1300 15W-40 oils...?

Regards,
D

 

[gsxr]

I can't find the detail sheets with the same detail of zinc and phosphorus on Rotella T4 15W-40 or Delvac 1300 15W-40 oils...?

Not all mfr's are willing to publish those specs, so it may be difficult or impossible to find. Sometimes, you'll find a helpful person has gotten a VOA on a sample and posted the results (usually on the BITOG forum) but even then, you need to know the exact rating on the label, and when the oil was bottled/purchased.

The rating will tell you a lot, I believe any CK-rated oil will have low ZDDP levels. Chevron was nice and (apparently) changed the name from Delo LE to Delo SDE. Mobil has not done this in the past, their Mobil-1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 oil was a Group IV/V base stock in the CI-4 rating, but changed to Group III in the CJ-4 rating with the same name. Looks like TDT is still CJ-4, and I don't know if they will release an updated CK-rated version, or if they expect people to use something like Delvac-1 ESP for their newfangled diesels.

 

[gerryvz]

Not all mfr's are willing to publish those specs, so it may be difficult or impossible to find. Sometimes, you'll find a helpful person has gotten a VOA on a sample and posted the results (usually on the BITOG forum) but even then, you need to know the exact rating on the label, and when the oil was bottled/purchased.

The rating will tell you a lot, I believe any CK-rated oil will have low ZDDP levels. Chevron was nice and (apparently) changed the name from Delo LE to Delo SDE. Mobil has not done this in the past, their Mobil-1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 oil was a Group IV/V base stock in the CI-4 rating, but changed to Group III in the CJ-4 rating with the same name. Looks like TDT is still CJ-4, and I don't know if they will release an updated CK-rated version, or if they expect people to use something like Delvac-1 ESP for their newfangled diesels.

I’m going to create a new sub-forum here on the 500Eboard called “GITOG” — GSXR Is the Oil Guy.

All oil related threads will be consolidated there.

 

[nocfn]

All auto parts stores take
Your recycled fluids and dispose them for free.

 

[Maui]

All auto parts stores take
Your recycled fluids and dispose them for free.

I put mine out at the curb with the recycling.

 

[gerryvz]

I put mine out at the curb with the recycling.

All auto parts stores take
Your recycled fluids and dispose them for free.

Our local FLAPS take waste oil here. One of them has a 500 gallon waste oil tank, so they’re always able to take it in.

Yeah, I'm aware of the fact that McFLAPS stores will often take used oil. I've done that in the past (when I lived in Portland, before they took oil curbside) and they made me sit around and fill out a form on a clipboard, yadda-cubed. PITA.

Never was comfortable recycling oil curbside, though in Portland they would take it (not in Texas or Maryland though). I always had visions of some kid coming by and kicking my curbside milk jug containers over. So, I always just brought my oil to my buddy indy shops. My buddy's shop in Texas, he had the oil recycle container on the pallet right out behind the shop, and I had permission to drop by anytime to empty my 5-gallon containers (and antifreeze in the other recycle container). At least there I knew it was properly disposed of, and going to a good cause. I'll do the same here locally in MD.

As in Texas, they do have county recycling centers here in Maryland where you can also recycle motor oil and other chemicals.

 

[gsxr]

Recycling engine oil (or ATF, or gear oil) is usually not too difficult. Tip: If you buy gallon jugs (or larger) of engine oil, those containers work much better than plastic milk jugs for storage. And it's easier to re-fill compared to using 8 cute little quart bottles.

However I've never found any McParts/FLAPS that will accept used antifreeze or brake fluid. Where I live, the neighboring county offers free hazmat collection at various locations every week. They accept almost any hazardous fluids, batteries, and some electronics. About once a year I bring many gallons of used coolant / oil / brake fluid. One of the last times, the collection guy looked at the 20+ gallons in the trunk and asked "Uh - is this all from personal use?". D'oh.

 

[LWB250]

In a former business I was a principal in, we heated our rather large shop with waste oil. As we were in the standby power business, we had a constant flow of waste oil available to us for free. As an oil change on a moderately sized standby generator set could easily be 50-100 gallons you can imagine the volume of oil we had coming in.

One of the reasons we went this direction was the eventual fall off of vendors willing to purchase waste oil. In the 80s and 90s we had companies that would come and pick up our waste oil and pay us for it. Granted, it wasn’t much, but it kept the shop fridge stocked with beer, which was a nice way to use it.

In the late 90s, vendors started just coming and hauling the waste oil for free - no payout for it. That was still a good thing as it shifted the liability of handling and disposing of it to another company. Eventually, it got the point where they were going to require payment to dispose of it, so we went looking for alternatives.

We ended up buying a large oil fired furnace that was designed to burn waste oil. With the oil we collected we easily got through the heating season running on waste oil, and it alleviated us from having to do a “cradle to grave” accounting on it for the State, who now considers it a hazardous material.

Dan

 

[Odessit86]

Is that myth or true.. some say when you have high mileage engine.. you can use Oil with more viscosity.. for example..
Your manufacturing specs says 0w-40 but after 100k miles you can use 10w40 ! It helps to protect better bearings, camshaft since the more engine get older the more bearings will have "gaps".. Any thgouts?

 

[gsxr]

Is that myth or true.. some say when you have high mileage engine.. you can use Oil with more viscosity.. for example..
Your manufacturing specs says 0w-40 but after 100k miles you can use 10w40 ! It helps to protect better bearings, camshaft since the more engine get older the more bearings will have "gaps".. Any thgouts?

As a VERY ROUGH guide... yes. The theory being that clearances are larger in a high-mile, worn engine and slightly thicker oil may help a bit.

Again, as mentioned above for the M113, the 10W-40 viscosity is officially approved and there is no problem using it. I'd be more concerned about moving up to 20W-50 or something else drastically thicker.

 

[Odessit86]

Dave.. you mention that you are using Red line.. do you have any gasket or seals that seeping oil.... some say that synthetic oil can cause leaks...

 

[gsxr]

Dave.. you mention that you are using Red line.. do you have any gasket or seals that seeping oil.... some say that synthetic oil can cause leaks...

This is the great unknown. Oils don't cause leaks, failing seals cause leaks... but some synthetics may sneak past marginal seals. Depending on the particular oil AND the type of seal, the synthetic may either shrink or swell the seal in question. The proper fix is to replace the leaking seal. Synthetic DOES NOT cause leaks with new / good seals.

Out in the real world, the only seal I've had issues with on almost every M119 (and OM60x, and M10x) engine is the front crankshaft seal. It's not that difficult to replace, so I end up installing a new one at some point. I've almost never had issues with the rear main. I am not familiar with the M112/M113 so I don't know which ones to keep an eye on. The W210 with FSS should use synthetics anyway.

 

[gerryvz]

This is the great unknown. Oils don't cause leaks, failing seals cause leaks... but some synthetics may sneak past marginal seals. Depending on the particular oil AND the type of seal, the synthetic may either shrink or swell the seal in question. The proper fix is to replace the leaking seal. Synthetic DOES NOT cause leaks with new / good seals.

Out in the real world, the only seal I've had issues with on almost every M119 (and OM60x, and M10x) engine is the front crankshaft seal. It's not that difficult to replace, so I end up installing a new one at some point. I've almost never had issues with the rear main. I am not familiar with the M112/M113 so I don't know which ones to keep an eye on. The W210 with FSS should use synthetics anyway.

I think the issue is really more that when an engine is run on dino oil, particularly thicker (say 15W-40 and heavier), and then it is changed over after high miles (say 100K+) to thinner full-synthetic, the swollen seals that are used to the dino often shrink or allow the synthetic oil past them. This has given synthetic a bad rap for causing leaks, when it's perhaps not truly the case.

I wouldn't call a seal "marginal" if it's still working just fine with dino oil. It's just "used" to contact with dino oil, and the different chemical+viscosity properties of a full-synthetic oil may cause a higher mileage seal to weep or leak after the change. Doesn't mean the seal is marginal or requiring replacement. I've had/seen situations where changing BACK to dino FROM synthetic cured leaks that started happening with a conversion over to the full synthetic.

My philosophy is that unless a car has relatively low miles, it should be kept on what it has been run with (for most older cars, that means dino). I did convert my E500 over to full synthetic when I got it at 67K miles and it's never leaked or wept a drop due to seal seepage (front crank seal is now worn, but that's an age/mileage issue, not an oil issue).



Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

I run synthetic in all my engines, regardless of miles. I have no idea what the PO was using in my one car purchased with >190kmi on the clock, but after filling with Red Line the only leak I had was the front crank seal, which took a few hours to replace. Otherwise, zero issues. My 1987 300D has 330kmi and I've fed it synthetic since I bought it 21 years ago with 185k... new front main seal, original rear main, still no leaks, and minimal oil consumption too.

I prefer to use top-shelf synthetic oil in my M119's, and if that means I have to replace a seal that starts leaking, so be it.

 

[Bogeyman]

What can I buy now for my '87 300TDT???

I'm so confused...

 

[gsxr]

What can I buy now for my '87 300TDT???

Red Line 10W-40 will work in that OM603 engine, it's CF rated. Nice wagon, btw! My '87 is a sedan.

 

[RicardoD]

Based upon this thread I have been using Redline 10W40 in extended 10k mile change interval. I recently had engine out service done on my car to replace timing chain guide rails and just completed 5k miles after that service. Car is now at 169.5k miles. I remember my mechanic thought I was completely nuts going to 10k between oil changes. He asked I go to 5k. So I just changed my oil at 5k after this service but wanted to get my own oil analysis done so I could get myself comfortable again with a 10k interval. I send a sample of oil back to Blackstone labs and attached is the result.

I added the addition TBN analysis and it came back at 3.5 I am trying to understand this number better. Blackstone characterizes this TBN as "strong" but still advised an oil change anyone probably because of the absence of any other real into on the car. I will extend my next interval to 7500 miles and repeat analysis then.

Nice you can get Redline 5W40 in gallon containers now via Amazon. Before I would buy a 12qt case.

 

[gerryvz]

I’ve always gone 5K on my RedLine, and 2-3K on DELO 400 15W-40 (M104s) and Brad Penn 20W-50 (M117).

My TBNs always come back with plenty of overhead left, but the Dino oils’ TBNs drop pretty dramatically past the 3K mile mark, and in the case or two where I’ve run Dino to the 5K mark, are significantly lower.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Based upon this thread I have been using Redline 10W40 in extended 10k mile change interval. I recently had engine out service done on my car to replace timing chain guide rails and just completed 5k miles after that service. Car is now at 169.5k miles. I remember my mechanic thought I was completely nuts going to 10k between oil changes.

Ricardo, if you drive enough miles annually, 10k is fine. However, it's probably best not to go more than 18-24 months between changes. Most oil companies recommend 1 year max but I personally think that's conservative, assuming the car does not get any severe service, and is always driven long enough to get the oil up to operating temp each time (10+ miles at ~50mph). I generally try to change by 2 years or so (excluding vehicles in storage).

Your iron levels are a tick on high side, but you'll need more samples to monitor that. The iron level is still low enough that I wouldn't worry about it. And, it may be related to the major work done recently. The silicon level is probably NOT due to dirt or poor air filtration. Some oil additive packages use silicon as an anti-foaming agent and I believe Red Line does this, which is probably why the silicon is above the 'universal averages' number. My Red Line UOA's show similar levels of silicon.

I added the addition TBN analysis and it came back at 3.5 I am trying to understand this number better. Blackstone characterizes this TBN as "strong" but still advised an oil change anyone probably because of the absence of any other real into on the car. I will extend my next interval to 7500 miles and repeat analysis then.

Every oil has a different starting TBN, usually between 8 and 12. I think the Red Line 10W-40 is 8 or 9 to start with. At 3.5 there is plenty of additive package left, and yes you could go to 7500 miles at the next change, and very likely have no issues at 10k either. Note that if you add any oil, this will boost the TBN. So, if you add a quart along the way to a 10k interval, it will increase TBN and give you some additional safety margin. As a reference point, I've run Red Line 10W-40 in my wife's E420 daily driver at 10kmi intervals, and the lowest observed TBN was 1.2 with zero oil added during the 10kmi over 24 months. As noted on the Blackstone sheet, it's best to keep TBN above 1.0 so adjust the change interval as needed.

Nice you can get Redline 5W40 in gallon containers now via Amazon. Before I would buy a 12qt case.

Gallon jugs are the only way to go! They are available at Summit Racing as well, currently $48/gallon, with free shipping over $99. I keep a quart bottle or two around in case I need to top off, but I only have one or two engines that consume enough oil to require adding between changes. All my M119's get 2 gallons at oil change time, which puts the level right at 50% on the dipstick, exactly where I want it.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-11405
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-11404

 

[samiam44]

I switched to the redline 10w40 a few years ago. Engine likes it better than M1 which the PO used. Redline's description says it's a high ZDDP ideal for classic v8 engines.

Other really good option in the past was Motul 229.5 spec, 5W40.

Michael

 

[Klink]

Re: OWNER: Ertech

ADMIN EDIT: Copied this excellent Klink post from a different thread (here).

I'd recommend Red Line 10W-40, but if you want something available at Wal-Mart, use Mobil-1 10W-40 or 15W-50. Remember to change the filter first, before draining the sump. Pour in 8 quarts (2 gallons) and the level should be perfect, right in the middle between MIN and MAX. You do not want the level at MAX.

If you don't know when the ATF was last changed, I'd look into that as well. Search the forum for a ste-by-step How-To procedure on the ATF change.

Just for what it’s worth, Mobil 1 did recently lower the zinc/phosphorus contents of the “high mileage 10–40” oil, so my recommendation of that now comes with some reservation. It used to be the exact Z/P rating of the MB recommended Mobil1 0W-40, and 5W-50. As far as “available at Walmart for dirt cheap” synthetic oils go, Wallmart has a bunch of them that meet MB spec 229.3 and/or 229.5. Just read the fine print on the back of the containers. Oils that carry the specifications are also frequently noted with some keywords like “European formula”, “rally formula” I’m happy with any oil that meets either of those criteria for the M119. Also, even though it does not spell out the compliance with either of those specifications, I could also run the 15W-50 with confidence.

Heaven help me, I don’t want to start an oil thread, but I don’t have any idea what you guys have against the 0W–40 229.3/.5 oils, though. If it’s good enough for MB and Porsche on the autobahn in summer, it’s good enough for anything conceivable that you could do with your car here, probably even including the track.

Oh, and on the MB spec thing, don’t be fooled. The specifications that are spelled out like this “229.3” are primarily gasoline engine oils. When you see extra digits like 229.31, .32, etc., those are low zinc/phosphorus primarily diesel specific oils intended to protect particulate filters, etc. If you want to stick with Mercedes synthetic oil recommendations for the 119, you are looking for MB spec 229.3 or 229.5, either singularly, or together is fine.

 

[gsxr]

Re: OWNER: Ertech

Klink, thanks for the tip! I didn't realize M-1 had reduced the ZDDP levels in the 10W-40 formula, by 200ppm each, sometime in the past 2 years. Current Mobil spec sheet (Feb-2018) PDF attached plus screen shots. Older spec sheets available here. The M-1 15W-50 still retains politically incorrect levels of ZDDP, as does M-1 0W-40 FS (not to be confused with M-1 0W-40 ESP, or any other version of 0W-40). Remeber, all the Mobil-1 products in xW-40 or xW-50 viscosity are Group III synthetics, which is why they are cheap. If you change at 3k-5kmi, they are fine.

Red Line 10W-40 still has ZDDP levels in the 1000-1200 range based on multiple UOA's from my engines over the past few years, plus they use moly and some Group V (ester) base stocks, which makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Available at Jegs or Summit Racing for ~$48/gallon, free shipping over $99.

FWIW: The Mercedes dealer 5W-40 oil spec'd for the AMG M156 engine (with similar valvetrain design as the M119) has relatively low ZDDP levels, ~800 P, ~1000 Zn (based on UOA). The M119 valvetrain doesn't really need a super high ZDDP levels like the M117, but I still don't like low-ZDDP emissions-friendly oils.

 

[gsxr]

I will comment on 0W40, which originally was a M-1 only product here in the usa, used universally in oil changes at dealerships.

When it came out, ppl whom were doing oil analysis found that the 0W40 had a higher wear rate, and when they went back to the 10W40, 15W50 etc, the wear rates returned to their previous rate.

Klink, the post above from Michael reminded me why Mobil-1 0W-40 got a bad rap out of the gate. Many people, in many different engines, were seeing a spike in wear metals with M-1 0W-40 compared to thicker oils. This was probably 10-15 years ago now, but I remember reading all about it. I don't know if this was a teething issue which was resolved with later versions of the M-1 formula, but this was enough to turn a lot of people off from using the thin stuff... 229.x approval or not.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: OWNER: Ertech

Heaven help me, I don’t want to start an oil thread, <snip>

Don't let Klink fool you, he loves nothing more than oil threads. Cripes, even in THIS thread he writes a book about Mobil 1.

The M119 valvetrain doesn't really need a super high ZDDP levels like the M117, but I still don't like low-ZDDP emissions-friendly oils.


Here is the ultimate thread on this forum for oil discussion. Bring popcorn and a comfy chair:
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363

Exactly correct. For an M104 or M119, I would be satisfied with any quality oil with ZDDP at 800+. The valvetrains just don't need it like the M117 and M103 do. I have now been using RedLine 15W-50 in my E500/M119 for years with very happy results.

For an M117, you really can't go with an oil with less than 1100-1200 ZDDP, 1200+ is preferred. Brad Penn is my go-to oil, and I have been using the 20W-50 weight for many years. Now that I'm living in a colder climate, I may go to a 10W-40 version of same oil because of the winter starts. I'll stick with the RedLine 15W-50 all year around though, as I don't daily drive my E500/M119.

The M104 gets Chevron DELO 400 LE (a Diesel oil), 15W-40. They reduced the ZDDP in that also about a year ago, but as I said above ZDDP isn't too critical for M104 and M119 engines with similar valvetrain geometry. The detergents/cleaners in the diesel oils keep the inside of the M104 nice and clean.</snip>