E500E reproduction headlights?

[744Brillantsilber]

Hey everybody,

I came across this from the German R107 Club. R107 Euro-headlights are NLA for a long time, and even used ones are very rare and expensive.
The R107 Club now did a reproduction of the original Euro-headlights together with a German Company. These headlights are claimed to look exactly like the original and even passed all the test to be street legal in Germany!
The price for one set (left and right) is 1550 Euros incl VAT.
Mercedes SL SLC W107 Euro Scheinwerfer Paar - Motorform-Shop

If they done it for the R107, why can´t it be done for the E500E???

What do you think:
Would this be worth a try?
How big is the interest/demand?
What would you be willing to pay for a set of Repro headlights?

 

[JAB12]

The challenge on this one is that the alternate of using pedestrian 124 headlights or ‘depot’ headlights is readily available for a fraction of that price. This will make most folks shy away from a €1600 price. I would turn this thread into a Poll and see how it goes. Sign me up for a pair, as the alternate is dishing out the going rate of €5000+ for an NLA original set.

 

[2phast]

If your going to investigate this, see if the glass lenses can be made without fluting. With no fluting, HID projectors could successfully be installed and utilized. Most potential buyers probably won't go that route but it would be a nice option.

 

[TimL]

Hey everybody,

I came across this from the German R107 Club. R107 Euro-headlights are NLA for a long time, and even used ones are very rare and expensive.
The R107 Club now did a reproduction of the original Euro-headlights together with a German Company. These headlights are claimed to look exactly like the original and even passed all the test to be street legal in Germany!
The price for one set (left and right) is 1550 Euros incl VAT.
Mercedes SL SLC W107 Euro Scheinwerfer Paar - Motorform-Shop

If they done it for the R107, why can´t it be done for the E500E???

What do you think:
Would this be worth a try?
How big is the interest/demand?
What would you be willing to pay for a set of Repro headlights?

Great info, Merlin! I’d be in, if you decide to pursue this. The price point for the R107 reproduction lights sounds like a good ballpark....

 

[maw1124]

If your going to investigate this, see if the glass lenses can be made without fluting. With no fluting, HID projectors could successfully be installed and utilized. Most potential buyers probably won't go that route but it would be a nice option.

@2phast I’m glad you’re still around... I think this “Euro headlight” ferver shakes out roughly into a few groups... the first just really love the looks of a “single” headlight... I put those with the set that likes the “modern” look of facelift cars... the second group really cares about the increased light output of Euro lamps (which having struggled to upgrade my bulbs to acceptability without melting ballasts and such, I can completely understand and relate to)... the third group is really into “collector grade” originality and believes Euro everything is better, because well “Euro” speaks for itself...

The last group is probably the largest, and they will take real quality glass and upgraded light output in a single headlight if it isn’t too much trouble or cost... and for that group, this makes tons of sense... they’ll still need to figure out the wiper blade and filler panel issues... but only the third group will opt out, and most of them don’t have collector grade cars anyway.

Yes, I said it... no one 10 years from now will care about those 40 year old halogen gas headlights... or that ancient stereo system... FOH

maw

 

[msq]

@744Brillantsilber
Good find!
I agree, if you are willing, perhaps turn this into a poll.
It would be interesting to see how many people would be interested.
While the price is steep.....NLA when you really need them and don't want to use regular 124 ones or the depo ones, is even harder pill to swallow.
In general I trust the quality coming out of Germany, so this may be an interesting option.

 

[speedy300dturbo]

Seeing as how Depo already has the tooling and molds in place to make the pedestrian W124 headlights (both pre and post facelift), perhaps they could make some modifications to the finishing process to rework the lenses to get the 500E500 look. This could be a budget friendly solution for those not willing to drop $5K on a pair of genuine Hellas...

 

[MB V8]

Seeing as how Depo already has the tooling and molds in place to make the pedestrian W124 headlights (both pre and post facelift), perhaps they could make some modifications to the finishing process to rework the lenses to get the 500E500 look. This could be a budget friendly solution for those not willing to drop $5K on a pair of genuine Hellas...

^^^^........this..... I was thinking along the same lines. It's the lenses that are needed.

At the same time 744Brilliantsilber thank you for getting the discussion going on the topic of headlights. I think the idea could be used on other NLA parts.

 

[skikrazey]

Perhaps a member could contact Hella directly and see if they would make a small production run. It's worth a shot, the company that made the OEM SLS jugs did it. You don't know if you don't ask. Worst they can say is nein!

 

[speedy300dturbo]

Perhaps a member could contact Hella directly and see if they would make a small production run. It's worth a shot, the company that made the OEM SLS jugs did it. You don't know if you don't ask. Worst they can say is nein!

This might be tricky. Before the lights went NLA from MB, getting them from Hella via SpeedAutoteile in Germany was an option. If I recall correctly, Hella later decided that they would produce the lights exclusively for MB, and would no longer sell them as an aftermarket OEM part.

 

[Taxi Driver]

I sure hope MB will come to their senses, i.e MB Classic branch, aren't ther a lot restorers and such having
a demand for items like this? As the OEM suppliers still are in the bussiness AND Daimler Benz push
& pull the strings, would it not be, a nice act of "good will"...

Btw, as I have new, still unused lenses I will not put them on before I find some quallity lens protectors
if ther are any, Polycarbonate PC, Lexan e.g. Or otherwise they will stay in the Wault...

 

[JC220]

I sure hope MB will come to their senses, i.e MB Classic branch, aren't ther a lot restorers and such having
a demand for items like this? As the OEM suppliers still are in the bussiness AND Daimler Benz push
& pull the strings, would it not be, a nice act of "good will"...

Btw, as I have new, still unused lenses I will not put them on before I find some quallity lens protectors
if ther are any, Polycarbonate PC, Lexan e.g. Or otherwise they will stay in the Wault...

Do I recall seeing some online request form for MB NLA parts? What if we start a campaign of all of us submitting the requests for 500E headlamp part numbers on a semi regular basis

Remember also folks its NOT just the lenses that differ on 036 Headlamp assemblies! (The inner driving lamp reflector differs also)

However I guess existing owners who would get a cracked lens would just need the lens to replace. Whilst others with non 036 headlamps would need the whole assembly.

 

[gerryvz]

I think the lamp internals from "pedestrian" lamps can be adapted and/or modified to create "Euro" guts. It's as said really the lenses that are the biggest difference (and the inboard pencil beams for .036 / fog lamps for regular cars).

 

[JC220]

I think the lamp internals from "pedestrian" lamps can be adapted and/or modified to create "Euro" guts. It's as said really the lenses that are the biggest difference (and the inboard pencil beams for .036 / fog lamps for regular cars).

With parts from 036 specific headlamps yes.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Ok,
thanks for your opinions!

I could contact the seller and ask about the chance to do E500E lights.

Some more thoughts:

E500E lights would very likely be more expensive than the R107 lights. The costs for production molds, European certification.. are the same, but very likely with less quantity!

And I don´t think that I can pull this of alone. The seller is on the other end of the country, so an other member closer would help a lot. I don´t have E500E headlights as samples too.

Let me find out how to do a poll here, so that we can get a approximately number of potential buyers.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Ok, I managed to set up a poll. You can find it on the top of this thread.

 

[Ntrepid]

I’d be just interested in just 500E lens.

I think is a big undertaking to get Hella to build an entire headlamp unit which replicates all of the unique features of an E5E. Put simply, if you have only 2 items (reflector, lens) which need to be manufactured, Hella needs to change 4 parts in total to account for each headlight assembly on the car. This does not even account for LHT/RHT models nor the original and facelift varianta.

Also, would Hella need to get MB approval to do this as MB would possibly see no compensation in this arrangement even though it is a MB design.


Robert

 

[skikrazey]

Perhaps add a poll just for lenses.

Someone mentioned a form to petition MB to make a production run on NLA parts. If we submitted a petition from the forum membership, perhaps that might persuade MB to do a small production run.

 

[gsxr]

I thought someone contacted MB / MBCC last year and were told the minimum quantity for a new OE production run would be a few hundred units (either lights or lenses, I can't remember)...?

 

[Markus-MD]

I mean the Main Problem are only the Glas.You must find somone to fabricate can make tempered glas in Mold and then you cant use Hella or MB singn on it.And for German TÜV you must have a long breath and big deep pocket,For the Plastic Cover to hold the Glass is not a big Prob,There can i help.
And then how many ?? less 50 big price more as 50 better price,i my Opinon a price for both side only the Lence to clic on the old Body is not realistic under 1500 Euro.
has more charakter as an Protyping as Series factoring.
Dont forgot Left+Right 500E and Left +Right E500 , For both car 4 Mold ,4Glas and and and ,
I am on to reproduced but ,,,,,,,, for the Original Fetischist are not a Option you know

 

[ahmat19]

Hi all looking on all how the parts are going NLA I did the experiment on how to make the regular prefacelift head lenses in to a 500e .

what I did purchased new euro bosh lenses split the glass from the plastic and send plastic to my friends to try to chrome them .

so this is the result .

 

[gsxr]

Does anyone know if the fluting in the glass over the inner (H3) bulb can be ground / modified so it won't affect the high-beam pattern needed for 500E lights? I assume the lens fluting is mostly responsible for the wide/flat beam pattern, since the reflectors are not drastically different. (??)

 

[MB V8]

Hi all looking on all how the parts are going NLA I did the experiment on how to make the regular prefacelift head lenses in to a 500e .

what I did purchased new euro bosh lenses split the glass from the plastic and send plastic to my friends to try to chrome them .

so this is the result .

Nice work ahmat19! That's what needs done on the lenses. Did your friend have an idea on the cost to do a set of lenses?

 

[ahmat19]

Nice work ahmat19! That's what needs done on the lenses. Did your friend have an idea on the cost to do a set of lenses?

hey so it cost me with shipping both ways 230 for a pair + for the new lenses I paid 320

 

[ahmat19]

so this set is for sale because I sold my 1993 500e and I have no use for the im asking 650 if anyone interested let me know

 

[JC220]

Hi all looking on all how the parts are going NLA I did the experiment on how to make the regular prefacelift head lenses in to a 500e .

what I did purchased new euro bosh lenses split the glass from the plastic and send plastic to my friends to try to chrome them .

so this is the result .

So this is stock w124 non 500E glass with chrome inner plastic to give the appearance of 500E glass yes?

Because I would think the fluting of the 500E lens glass is also different due to the different function of the internal fog lamp to driving lamp(?)

In which case be careful what way these parts are mixed. Eg your stock glass needs to go on stock housings / reflectors to function correctly but is not compatible to replace a lens on a 500E headlamp unit.

 

[gsxr]

Because I would think the fluting of the 500E lens glass is also different due to the different function of the internal fog lamp to driving lamp(?)

Correct: ^^^

The fluting is different... this also needs to be addressed. Just chroming the plastic frame won't change the fog beam pattern to high beam / driving lamp pattern.

 

[195910]

As Ahmat demonstrated, Chroming the plastic frame is not an impossible task, as you all know most of the trim on cars is just chromed plastic!
@ahmat19, you need to remove the cap covering the fog light bulb in the housing as well. This will give more beam direction, but I don't know the effect of the glass flutter @gsxr mentioned. How substantial is that Dave ?

 

[gsxr]

This will give more beam direction, but I don't know the effect of the glass flutter @gsxr mentioned. How substantial is that Dave ?

I'm not sure, but the standard lights have a very flat/wide beam pattern, and I don't think it's due to the reflector or the cover over the bulb. I think it's from the lens fluting. It would require some experimenting. Also, the lens fluting changes the appearance significantly... if trying to make the lights look like real 036 lights, the lens/fluting must be changed somehow.

 

[195910]

I'm not sure, but the standard lights have a very flat/wide beam pattern, and I don't think it's due to the reflector or the cover over the bulb. I think it's from the lens fluting. It would require some experimenting. Also, the lens fluting changes the appearance significantly... if trying to make the lights look like real 036 lights, the lens/fluting must be changed somehow.

Thank Dave,

The E500 lens flutters appear softener and more transparent, is that correct? if so do you think a W124 lens could be polished into such transparency?

 

[gsxr]

Thank Dave,

The E500 lens flutters appear softener and more transparent, is that correct? if so do you think a W124 lens could be polished into such transparency?

Yes, that's what it looks like... but I do not know if the W124 lens could be modified/polished as needed to make the beam correct. I know nothing about glass lens engineering.

 

[500AMM]

Perhaps a member could contact Hella directly and see if they would make a small production run. It's worth a shot, the company that made the OEM SLS jugs did it. You don't know if you don't ask. Worst they can say is nein!

This might be tricky. Before the lights went NLA from MB, getting them from Hella via SpeedAutoteile in Germany was an option. If I recall correctly, Hella later decided that they would produce the lights exclusively for MB, and would no longer sell them as an aftermarket OEM part.

I’d be just interested in just 500E lens.

I think is a big undertaking to get Hella to build an entire headlamp unit which replicates all of the unique features of an E5E. Put simply, if you have only 2 items (reflector, lens) which need to be manufactured, Hella needs to change 4 parts in total to account for each headlight assembly on the car. This does not even account for LHT/RHT models nor the original and facelift varianta.

Also, would Hella need to get MB approval to do this as MB would possibly see no compensation in this arrangement even though it is a MB design.


Robert

With reference to the quoted posts above, MB's proprietary on the design of the headlights controls any reproduction at their subvendors like Hella, Bosch etc... Some 6-7++ years ago did MB claim their rights about selling their parts in the aftermarket business. Their cleanup had no compromise and was literally; If you sell our branded parts you do as we say and use our price level - if not we sue the shit out of your business!

The shockwave blew through the entire aftermarket and the price level doubled almost overnight on many parts. I recall having a parts request at Speed Autoteile, Germany and they replied with several weeks delivery time on parts they normally provided in a couple of days. I called them and they explained it was due to new demands from MB and they didn't know when and if the issue was sorted. After that it's been a steep price increase based on a falling demand, which is actually controlled by MB by gradually reducing the parts production until they decide to phase out the part. Another example is the few E60 AMG swaybars we've seen for sale around the later 4-5 years. AFAIK it was the last production run done by Eibach on order from AMG. Those swaybars has the Eibach marking only so I thought they were open for orders and contacted them regarding a possible production run. But I was just referred to AMG and they were not allowed to tell anything, except for they didn't have any ongoing order from AMG on that particular part at that moment.

So what I am trying to say is that none of the vendors with solid and decade long agreements with MB will never take on a private initiative. I guess they could easliy do it and probably remove any MB reference on the part as well, but that would be conflicting their agreements with MB and they would run into serious problems. My best guess to get another production run of OE lenses/headlights is to start placing numbers of requests through the MB dealers. Depending on the price of course, but maybe 100 sets of headlight lenses and 50 sets of headlight assemblies could be an estimated need. If we could organize that among us here, and spread the requests from all corners of the world, we could at least hope for a response from MB.

 

[195910]

Another example is the few E60 AMG swaybars we've seen for sale around the later 4-5 years. AFAIK it was the last production run done by Eibach on order from AMG. Those swaybars has the Eibach marking only so I thought they were open for orders and contacted them regarding a possible production run. But I was just referred to AMG and they were not allowed to tell anything, except for they didn't have any ongoing order from AMG on that particular part at that moment.

I know of one more case, the front and rear struts made by Sachs for a prominent tuner, these had the internal rebound springs just like the OE struts but slightly firmer.. just like say an AMG strut... I wonder who scored a set of those for a 124036

 

[ricsim]

Perhaps this polishing method could attenuate the grooves of standard lenses.

 

[Vinnie]

I called them and they explained it was due to new demands from MB and they didn't know when and if the issue was sorted. After that it's been a steep price increase based on a falling demand, which is actually controlled by MB by gradually reducing the parts production until they decide to phase out the part.

That sounds as if MB was acting as a parent ready to cut off food supply to their children and let them slowly die. On the first thought it may seem to contradict what the Classic Center is promoting. On the other hand...that most probably leads to have just only the most desperate owners willing to pay more for something worth less, and do it rarely enough so MB is not bothered too often with reproduction of the older stuff.

My best guess to get another production run of OE lenses/headlights is to start placing numbers of requests through the MB dealers. Depending on the price of course, but maybe 100 sets of headlight lenses and 50 sets of headlight assemblies could be an estimated need. If we could organize that among us here, and spread the requests from all corners of the world, we could at least hope for a response from MB.

I'm not sure that ordering through dealers will work in all the cases. In many cases they may just tell that they are sorry, but the part is NLA. As far as I know, then only possibility to report demand for a part is through this form:
Classic Center Part Demand Form
There is a field for MB dealer code, but none of the three official dealers in my city uses that form. They just say "sorry, NLA".

 

[500AMM]

You're rigth, Vinnie. MB is controlling this pretty well based on business perspectives, emission regulations and politics. And the simple fact that their future is new cars, not 20-30 year old cars. But if someone pays the bill - you get what you want. I wasn't aware of the request opportunities through the classic center, but that's probably a better way to go than the dealers. Maybe I should try to order 10 sets of lenses and see what happens.

 

[msq]

There is a field for MB dealer code, but none of the three official dealers in my city uses that form. They just say "sorry, NLA".

....same here...they just say NLA

 

[msq]

Maybe I should try to order 10 sets of lenses and see what happens.

Maybe its worth someone coordinating all the "yes" respondent in the poll and over the next 30 days having all of us "yes" responders put order/request in to MB Classic as well as people calling the guy there?

 

[500AMM]

Maybe its worth someone coordinating all the "yes" respondent in the poll and over the next 30 days having all of us "yes" responders put order/request in to MB Classic as well as people calling the guy there?

Good idea! The only way they will respond is if they see an increasing demand over a shorter period. Just guessing, but 10-15 requests over say 3-4 years may not cover their cost for doing a production run. This is all about money, plus some willingness (..if that's a english word?)

 

[ricsim]

This is a good idea.
We should try it, but how do we know how much they might be interested in?

 

[500AMM]

@744Brillantsilber, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, sorry. But you've brought up an important topic.

 

[500AMM]

This is a good idea.
We should try it, but how do we know how much they might be interested in?

IMO the only way is to start putting orders, coordinated over a shorter period. And the people must commit to their orders, that's what MB need to see, open questions about the availability won't help.

 

[gsxr]

As mentioned previously... I believe it will take more than a few dozen requests. When it gets to a few hundred requests (better yet, actual orders) for a given part number, that may get MB's attention. A couple dozen guys from a forum, like honey badger, they just don't care.

 

[skikrazey]

Perhaps Magneti Marelli might be a viable alternative to Hella.

 

[gsxr]

Bosch made the USA E500 lights, so there's a faint chance of that happening... worth a try.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

I’d be just interested in just 500E lens.

I think is a big undertaking to get Hella to build an entire headlamp unit which replicates all of the unique features of an E5E. Put simply, if you have only 2 items (reflector, lens) which need to be manufactured, Hella needs to change 4 parts in total to account for each headlight assembly on the car. This does not even account for LHT/RHT models nor the original and facelift varianta.

Also, would Hella need to get MB approval to do this as MB would possibly see no compensation in this arrangement even though it is a MB design.


Robert

Hello Robert, sorry for my late answer!
After some research I doubt that they will do lenses only. The reason is the way how you have to certify parts over here. From what I have read, the lenses Need to be certified as part of the headlights. That is why spare lenses for his R107 lights are ok, but likely no spare lenses only.
Of course nobody will ever notice, but he as a seller is legally responsible for it when selling lenses without certificate in the EU.

@500AMM, @msq, @gsxr, @skikrazey, @Vinnie, @MarkusMD: Thanks for all your Input!
To me it looks like the best way would be to "invade" both MB and MM AL with requests.
In addition I can offer to give the repro guy a call and ask if he is interested in doing E500e lights and under which circumstances it would make sense for him.

 

[195910]

Bosch made the USA E500 lights, so there's a faint chance of that happening... worth a try.

Dave, what was the difference between the Euro and US E500 headlights?
Its not a sealed light unit like the US 500E, no?

 

[gsxr]

Dave, what was the difference between the Euro and US E500 headlights?
Its not a sealed light unit like the US 500E, no?

They are VERY similar, but not identical.

Bosch USA E500 lights have no vacuum level control, no city light, and a bubble-level inside for aiming (USA DOT).

Hella Euro E500 lights have the vacuum leveler, city lights, and no bubble level.

The lenses are slightly different, and the shields over the H4 bulb is slightly different. But they both should have near-equal light output.

 

[msq]

Hello Robert, sorry for my late answer!
After some research I doubt that they will do lenses only. The reason is the way how you have to certify parts over here. From what I have read, the lenses Need to be certified as part of the headlights. That is why spare lenses for his R107 lights are ok, but likely no spare lenses only.
Of course nobody will ever notice, but he as a seller is legally responsible for it when selling lenses without certificate in the EU.

@500AMM, @msq, @gsxr, @skikrazey, @Vinnie, @MarkusMD: Thanks for all your Input!
To me it looks like the best way would be to "invade" both MB and MM AL with requests.
In addition I can offer to give the repro guy a call and ask if he is interested in doing E500e lights and under which circumstances it would make sense for him.

I suspect that @gsxr is right, however why not try. Someone would need to know the contact info for all "yes respondents" here and be the lead coordinator on "when to put in a request/order" and then trigger people to put their order in on species dates.

I am glad to commit to a purchase in advance for my order and if everyone who is a "yes" is willing, maybe that helps?
I don't know, but maybe worth a shot. Could be a fools errand, but 100% chance it won't hap[p[en if we don't try.

 

[Vinnie]

As mentioned previously... I believe it will take more than a few dozen requests. When it gets to a few hundred requests (better yet, actual orders) for a given part number, that may get MB's attention. A couple dozen guys from a forum, like honey badger, they just don't care.

More or less that's the number, but actually no one (?) knows the answer. The MB dealer which is near my home opened a separate division devoted to all those classic Mercedes cars (of all the dealers in the whole Poland it was the one in my city which opened such supporting division, I should consider myself lucky, right? Yes, and no...). By the way - you may have a look at their webpage, it even exists in English version (Duda Legends). One day last summer I drove there to check whether I can make some contacts. I was nearly turned away as the guy at the gate house did not want to let me in, as I did not made an official appointment. I persuaded him telling that the main dealer told me to go there as my W124 was making them a problem. Finally I found the correct person responsible for parts supply. Now the unlucky part. Their part supply chain is: MB storage houses on the whole world (that's not a problem for a dealer as they have access to that system) and ... eBay. I asked about the Classic Center and the demand request, but he told me that they hardly use it, because if the part is not there you do not know when you get it. He told me, that there is a legend that the part is reproduced if 1000 orders is gathered, but this is just a legend - the number is not confirmed and the actual decision when, in what number and if ever to reproduce a part belongs to MB.

The more I think about it, the more the whole MB starts to look like a company from SF movies, hidden behind a kind of a curtain, accessible only for "the selected ones".

To me it looks like the best way would be to "invade" both MB and MM AL with requests.

MM AL, good idea @744Brillantsilber. That recalled me one thing. Last year I bought a pair of Euro Bosh headlights (with blinkers) for my E420 (I need to replace US lights with European version) from sales representative of a company providing Magnetti Marelli (AL) and Hella products for Poland. I know E420 headlights are different from E500, but I may ask whether he knows anything about the possibility of producing some batch of units. Or maybe he's got access to some remaining units.

I do not want to hijack this thread, and sooner or later we may need a separate one, but one of ideas which hit me is to integrate with MB Clubs in different countries or at least knowing someone there. MB won't talk with individuals, but might be more prone to with larger, official groups. I read somewhere an article that R129 UK club made MB to reproduce some NLA parts. Last year about 9000 (or 12000 I lost access to official data) W124 were registered as classics in Germany. That means those cars will need support. Might need to go united we stand route. But yes - that's a topic for different thread.