Transmission problem -- VERY reluctant to upshift

[gerryvz]

For the past couple of years, my transmission has had the dreaded B3 "reverse" clutch issue, whereby I have had the clicking in reverse (particularly when the transmission is cold) and delayed shift into reverse (2-3 seconds). All forward speeds have been fine, and other than a little funkiness/flaring at the very top of the rev range -- particularly when pushing the car hard through the gears -- it has operated extremely well for regular driving. I have avoided the reverse issue primarily by backing my car into the garage (as I do with all my cars) to minimize wear and tear with a cold transmission in reverse.

The car has 117,000 miles on it, FYI.

Today I came home from work and parked the car (20-mile drive home) in my driveway for about 2.5 hours. Everything was just fine with the car and transmission. A little while ago I went to the post office (about 2 miles away, back roads) and noticed that the car all of the sudden was VERY reluctant to upshift from 2nd to 3rd gear, and once in 3rd it would be all I could do to get it to shift up into 4th. The car was holding both 2nd and 3rd gears into the 5,000-6,000 RPM range, and even then, I would have to play around with the throttle pedal a bit (back off slightly, etc.) to get it to upshift. I also noticed that downshifts (for example from 3rd to 2nd, when crossing a parking lot and slowing down to the ramp to pull out from the parking lot onto the street) were bouncy and sort of abrupt. Kind of a quick clunk. Most of the time on main roads I could not get the transmission to upshift into fourth at all -- I would cruise around in 3rd gear, 45-50 MPH at around 4,000-5,000 RPM, no upshift.

My FGS system was in normal shift mode and later on I turned it off completely, so it should have had no effect on any thing.

When I got home from the post office I checked the transmission fluid with the car running - engine was HOT from ~5 miles of driving plus the earlier drive home (outside temp in the low 70s, so not much cooldown in between drives).

Fluid was right where it was supposed to be from what I could tell -- at the upper mark of the high-temp arrow range (the higher of the marks on the dipstick) and seemed to be clear, and smelled OK. I checked it 3-4 times and every time seemed to be at the same place.

The fluid has not been changed at least in the past 6 years, so that would put it at around 90K service, or before? So I am sure it's due, with 27K of regular non-synthetic ATF in it.

My question of the experts is:

Should I replace the fluid/drain the torque converter, and replace the filter, and see if that cures the problem? Use RedLine D4 fluid and a Mann filter? If that doesn't solve anything, what are my next steps? A rebuild? It's probably at that point anyway for the B3 situation, but I was planning to do that job (and reseal the exterior and pump) myself.

Anyone had this problem of "extremely reluctant" upshifts before? What did you do about it?

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[JordiC]

Uncle G, you already know what the brain trust is going to say, "change the fluid asap". I had the same issue 6 months ago, minus the reverse delay, and fresh fluid cured it right up. I chose the Red Line High Temp. and you should consider it too, being in hot and traffic heavy Houston. Take note of the amount of debris in the pan when you pull it, it can tell you a lot.

I would cruise around in 3rd gear, 45-50 MPH at around 4,000-5,000 RPM, no upshift.

A truly horrible feeling indeed, the pocket pain starts acting up quick when that shit happens. Filter and fluid first and then call us in the morning.

 

[emerydc8]

Man, Gerry, I thought you had copied and pasted a post from someone else. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who has lived with the dreaded slow/weak reverse. When I first took delivery of my E420, the transmission was doing all kinds of weird things like hanging up and slipping and not upshifting. I figured it was toast but a friend of mine told me to change the filter and fluid and add a bottle of that Lucas stop slip. I didn't even drain the torque converter. That was three years ago. The problem ceased immediately. The only issue I have been living with is the slow/weak reverse. I suspect some clutch material from the B3 worked its way into the valve body and that's what caused the weird transmission behavior.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll keep us apprised.

 

[Glen]

I'd check the vacuum line to the modulator. A fluid and filter change won't hurt but I don't think that's the main problem.

 

[bing]

+4 on fluid change and will probably solve the reluctant upshifts but not the slow reverse engage and clicking, which I'm sure you know. Hardly the same degree of job, but I suppose you're contemplating whether you should rebuild, replace B3 clutch and seals ? After all the reverse clicking needs to be addressed at some stage.

Well, Uncle "G", If I had your knowledge, tools, facility, time and other cars to use I'd probably drop the box and start work on it before it gets too hot in the desert. Working under the car while sweating bullets is no fun

 

[gsxr]

My thoughts:

I'd change fluid & filter and use the cheapest Dexron-III fluid you can find (probably $2.50/qt or so), and use the cheap/standard 722.3 filter (about $10). If there's no change... you're only out $30 and some time. If the problem goes away... after maybe 1kmi, then I'd change it again to Red Line (or Amsoil) with the correct filter.

Meanwhile if you put Red Line in there at $11/qt and the 'proper' R129 filter at $22+ for aftermarket (or $75 for OE!), and the problem remains, you'll be out $110-$160... and the good stuff will get dumped when the trans is pulled for a rebuild.

 

[gerryvz]

I have a spare Mann filter and pan gasket (for my SEC) and a couple of gallons of cheap Dex-III ATF, so I will try to do this soon and will report back on what I find. This could well be a case of having old fluid as I can't exactly pinpoint the last time the tranny juice was changed. It was a while ago, though !!

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

I'd probably drop the box and start work on it before it gets too hot in the desert. Working under the car while sweating bullets is no fun

Yes, the "window" of time for working on cars is just now kicking in. It goes (in Houston) from about mid-February through about the first of May before things get GNARLY. It's why I started my M117 top-end rebuild on a February 28th and finished up right at the end of April on it.

Houston is actually not a desert/arid climate, but rather is a very lush, subtropical climate.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

If you change fluid/filter and the problem remains, you'll feel a LOT better about shelling out the $$$ for removing and rebuilding the tranny!!

 

[gsxr]

Houston is actually ... a very lush, subtropical climate.

Translation: They have about 150% humidity most of the summer. You get out of the shower and feel like you need to take another shower already. Oy...!!

 

[Bogeyman]

Portland always gets the "it's always raining" stigma, but Houston actually gets about a foot more annually!

 

[gerryvz]

Portland always gets the "it's always raining" stigma, but Houston actually gets about a foot more annually!

Absolutely correct -- most years we get far more rain in Houston than they do in Portland. However, when it rains in Houston, it's usually done in an hour or two. Meaning we get the equivalent of 2-3 weeks of Portland rain, in 2-3 hours in Houston. Then the sun comes back out and it's all good until the next time.

I'm all about "getting it over an' done with" and moving on, rather than not seeing the sun for 3 weeks at a time..... besides, I don't have to wash my cars NEARLY as often in Houston

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Bogeyman]

Ergo the "steam bath factor."

 

[JordiC]

It's gets freaking humid in Houston even in the winter. I, unfortunately, remember spending time at the old refinery in Sugarland. On some cold January mornings the condensation would drip from the walls and beams along with molasses, which was everywhere.

 

[gerryvz]

I will check the vacuum connections to the modulator and to the upshift delay (far fetched, but will check anyway) and will do a transmission oil drain along with the torque converter. Hopefully I won't have to struggle too much to get the torque converter drain lined up properly....

And will report back. Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[DW SD]

Gerry,
sorry about the troubles. Sounds quite likely, though, that the fluid change will solve your problem.

In my recent transmission R&R, I found it easy to turn the engine over using a very large flat-head screwdriver. You can use the same for indexing the torque converter drain.

Stick the screwdriver in one of the vertical holes at the bottom of the engine / transmission mounting flange and pry on the flywheel teeth. (of course, only turn the engine clockwise as looking from the front). I moved things two teeth at a time. My screwdriver is about 1/2" across at the tip and 28" long. Suspect there is a speical MBZ tool for the job, but this worked just fine. Bigger the better, as long as it fits in the hole. Apply proper upward force so you don't slip off and damage a tooth.
A smaller screwdriver worked, but had to go one tooth at a time....

Doug

 

[bing]

Houston is actually not a desert/arid climate, but rather is a very lush, subtropical climate.

Oh me bad! I forgot how big Texas is :fish:. Definitely sweaty and sticky then

 

[gerryvz]

What a bummer ... the spare Mann transmission filter that I have for my 560SEC/SEL/SL, part number 126 277 02 95, is only $12.30 from AutohausAZ.com or about $20 via parts.com.

The 124.036 transmission filter (ElringKlinger via AutohausAZ.com), part number 129 277 01 95, is $22.25 from AutohausAZ.com and more than $75 via parts.com !! List price over $100 !! Oy.

So, looks like I'll order up two 036 filters ... one as a "junk" filter with my crap tranny juice, and the other to have on hand for when the transmission is all repaired. Guess I'll order a second 126 filter as well, to have on hand as a spare. Sheesh.

Thanks for the info Doug. Yeah, I've got a big screwdriver that sounds similar to yours that I expected to use for this, so your confirmation is good to know.

Fingers crossed that it's just a fluid/filter and/or vacuum issue. I think I'll probably do the brake fluid at the same time while I'm draining the transmission. Heck ... probably going to turn into a full-on "C" service just in time for spring !

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[edcarls]

...Fingers crossed that it's just a fluid/filter and/or vacuum issue...

Don't forget to check the bowden cable. I experienced similar shift delay on a W124. I had to ease (release) the gas pedal a bit before it shifts to the next gear. My indy replaced the bowden cable and adjusted it together with the vacuum modulator. Thereafter, it shifts fine.

 

[gsxr]

Gerry, as I mentioned in my previous post... you can use the "cheap" 126 277 02 95 filter. You DO NOT need the expensive filter.

The only difference is a dual inlet that may help prevent sucking air during hard braking with low fluid.

:fish:

 

[emerydc8]

Okay, Gerry, the suspense is killing me. Did you have any luck with the transmission oil change or are you still waiting for the good filter?

 

[gerryvz]

Okay, Gerry, the suspense is killing me. Did you have any luck with the transmission oil change or are you still waiting for the good filter?

Didn't get to it this weekend due to the following reasons:

• Final prep & change brake fluid on my 560SL as I sold it to a friend this weekend
• MBCA Houston event yesterday at DriverSource in Houston (see other thread and separate photo album)
• Refinishing & staining a desk purchased for my home office

I hope to get to it over the course of a couple of nights this coming week.

 

[szvook]

Didn't get to it this weekend due to the following reasons:

• Final prep & change brake fluid on my 560SL as I sold it to a friend this weekend
• MBCA Houston event yesterday at DriverSource in Houston (see other thread and separate photo album)
• Refinishing & staining a desk purchased for my home office

... slacker.

 

[emerydc8]

We expect a fully detailed report -- in triplicate.

 

[Jelmer]

Give the man some slack, he was busy cleaning, packaging and generally hauling around my wheels ;-)

 

[gerryvz]

OK, I finally got to this job today. I had a spare Mann filter, new MB pan gasket and 8 quarts of Castrol Dex-III compatible ATF that is designed for cars with more than 75K miles. I'd originally bought this fluid for my wife's E320 wagon but decided to use it on this car, to see if it remedies the situation. I plan to re-drain and fill with RedLine D4 ATF and a new filter again in the near future.

Anyway, I'd say the job took me about 4 hours, taking my time, and waiting plenty of time to let the pain and torque converter drain. I drained the pan first, then buttoned it up, and drained the converter. Then I re-drained the pan again (quite a bit of fluid came out after 30-35 minutes) and then re-did the torque converter again (a bit more fluid came out, not too much). One more time for the pan and that was it.

I had to remove the crossover pipe and this was no problem -- not nearly the problem (with the upper bolts) that I thought it was going to be. Interestingly, my bottom bolts' nuts were different. One was a copper 12mm nut, and the other was a (rusty) seemingly non-copper 13mm nut. I'm going to re-order new nuts and bolts for both the top and bottom and replace them next time when I add the RedLine ATF juice.

In any case, everything went pretty smoothly. I had a Meyle (!) transmission filter in there, which I wasn't happy about. I don't know if the car came with that filter, or I had it serviced some years ago. I will have to look at my records to check that. But it's gone, as I CANNOT have any Meyle parts on my car. Replaced temporarily with a MANN filter. The transmission took about 7.8-7.9 quarts of ATF. I did not crack a line at the transmission or cooler to get every last drop out.

The sad thing is that I got the job done and started up the car, backed it off the ramps, and checked the fluid. All good, but then I noticed a small coolant leak (which I'd noticed from dried coolant in the past in the upper corner of the driver's side of the radiator. I touched the hose fitting (the small return hose) and it started spraying hot coolant out above the headlight!! So that small plastic fitting is cracked badly. IIRC, that piece is available separately (and cheaply) so I'll plan to replace it, adding to my next MB parts order. I started to back the car down the driveway to go out and test the transmission, and my low coolant light went on! Looked up into the garage and there was a pretty good puddle of coolant from the leak, on the garage floor! So I shut off the car, wiped up the coolant (didn't want my two cats to lap it up) and pulled the car back in the garage until I get the coolant leak fixed. Ugh.

So, once I get that done, I'll be able to tell you whether the car's shifting is fixed or not. I will tell you that I took the car on a 10-mile drive before I pulled it into the garage to change the ATF and filter (hadn't driven it since the transmission shifting had acted up) and it shifted 100% as it normally does - 2-3-4 up and downshifts just as normal.

For cleaning the pan, I poured the fluid out that was in the bottom of it first. There was NO debris in the bottom of the pan that I could see (perhaps a very small film of fine, black dust in suspension in the fluid, but certainly no metal or any other types of shavings of any type. Fluid seemed reddish-orange and darkish in color. I'm sure it was old -- it didn't smell overly burned or anything like that though. Probably overdue for change. After pouring the fluid out, I wiped the inside down with a rag, and then sprayed it real good with brake cleaner. After wiping that down three times with lint-free plastic cloths (Griot's Garage sells these for cleaning car windows) I blew it out several times before installing the new pan gasket. I also wiped the gasket down with a cloth covered with brake cleaner. Then I used a bit of clean ATF on the gasket surface to wet it down a bit, blew out the pan one last time, and then installed it.

Here are a few photos from my experience.

Cheers,
Gerry


Draining the transmission pan



Using a large screwdriver as a lever to rotate the converter (clockwise) to get to ...... the converter drain plug !!!



The lower attachment point for the crossover pipe. Two 13mm bolts; mine had 12 and 13mm nuts attached.



The upper attachment point for the crossover pipe. Two 13mm long bolts; no nuts needed.
I found it useful to use a "wobbly" attachment between 12-inch extension and 13mm socket to get a purchase on the upper/innermost bolt.



Loosening the torque converter drain plug using a 3/8" ratchet with 5mm hex socket.



Draining the converter into a paper funnel, which helped direct fluid downward into my drain pan.



Loosening the first of the six pan bolts.



Valve body and transmission filter draining into the receptacle, with the metal pan removed.



Removing one of the three Philips head screws holding the filter to the underside of the transmission.



Pan, just after removal from transmission.



Carefully attaching the new pan gasket. Note the two clips (one per side) that hold the gasket to the pan.



Clean pan, ready for re-installation.



Eeeeek! A Meyle transmission filter !!!

 

[emerydc8]

Sorry to hear about the coolant leak, Gerry.

That upper attachment bolt actually does have a copper nut that you can replace if it gets stripped. You can drive it out with a 3/8" extension from below. The copper nut inserts into the exhaust manifold facing down and the steel bolt goes up into it. Mercedes did an excellent job engineering this one, because mine actually did get stripped and I accidentally discovered the nut is an inset and it is removable.

Thanks for the pics.

 

[Trae]

Gerry,
What SL are you going to replace this with? Or, are you tired of going topless?

 

[gsxr]

Nice writeup, GVZ. The exhaust bolts are usually toast... except the ones to the manifold, these are typically re-usable. Always apply anti-seize to the manifold bolt threads, btw!

Here is a pic showing all the exhaust bolts. You need a couple of the 45mm long ones, plus the copper nuts. The nuts are cheap via aftermarket sources, btw, I buy 'em in bulk. Naturally I am missing the copper nut for the manifolds, I'll need to order a few and add those to the picture... thanks, Jon!!

 

[gerryvz]

I ordered a new radiator top fitting from parts.com this morning, among many other parts big and small. I remember there is a thread on the forum here that mentions this overflow hose fitting, but I couldn't find it on the site nor could I [surprisingly] find any reference to it at Google's chart-topping www.w124performance.com web site.

In any case, the part seems to be a weak point in our cooling systems and should be something that we all should watch. It's about $4.50 at parts.com.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

Thought I'd provide an update on this saga. It appears that the upshift problem was solved, with a fluid and filter change.

I fixed the coolant leak with a new joint that presses into the top corner of the radiator and attaches to the coolant overflow tank hose. See this thread for more information on this part.

Took the car out for a long (40-mile) drive today up I-45 to Conroe and around one-half of Texas Loop 336 to run errands, and then back down home to The Woodlands. I found that the transmission was 100% back to normal. It actually shifted a bit crisper than before, but absolutely didn't miss a beat. I am happy to call this one fixed.

Lesson learned for everyone: Closely track WHEN and WHAT MILEAGE your transmission fluid and filter are changed at, and keep them changed at 20-25,000 miles with conventional Dexron III fluid, and at 30,000 if you are using synthetic fluid. Be sure to use a quality filter -- i.e. MB OE, Mann, Elring, etc. NO Beck-Arnley or UROparts filters or the like. I don't have records of the last time (very surprisingly) my transmission fluid was changed, but I would have to say it's been AT LEAST 6 years and probably more than 40,000 miles (!). You can bet I'll be paying MUCH closer attention to this on my other cars now. My 560SEC is coming up due, and my E320 wagon is about due now, so that's my next job.

Thanks to everyone for their words of support, advice and encouragement on this. Could have been a lot worse.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[emerydc8]

Glad to hear the transmission is back to normal. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but any guesses why it misbehaved to begin with?

 

[gerryvz]

Glad to hear the transmission is back to normal. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but any guesses why it misbehaved to begin with?

Absolutely ....

I don't have records of the last time (very surprisingly) my transmission fluid was changed, but I would have to say it's been AT LEAST 6 years and probably more than 40,000 miles (!).

It may have been even 50,000 miles since I did the transmission fluid.

 

[DW SD]

thumbs up on the easy fix! Glad to hear a rebuild is not required. surprising how sensitive these transmissions are to fluid and filter changes.

The same experience is indicated on other MB boards.

Doug

 

[gsxr]

15-25kmi is the limit, IMO, for dino ATF. Synthetic ATF can go 30-60kmi under normal service.

 

[Trae]

Agree Doug,
It felt like a new transmission by simply changing fluid and filter with Redline D4.

 

[gerryvz]

I was losing about a drop an hour of transmission fluid on the floor of my garage, since I changed the fluid and filter. After taking things out yesterday for a run, to be sure they were working OK, it was time to tackle the minor leak. So today I got under the car with a torch and checked to see where the leak was coming from. It was at the drain plug.

I had re-used the original drain plug (which had shown some signs of minor stripping of the 5mm hex socket from past oil changes) and washer, and it was probably the re-used washer that was causing the problem. Luckily, I'd ordered two brand-new drain plugs and four copper drain-plug washers for the transmission pan, on my parts order from AHAZ. So, I put my catch basin under the transmission pan, readied the new drain plug with copper washer, loosened the old one with one hand and immediately installed the new one with the other hand. Minimal fluid lost, and all done in less than a minute after tightening things up.

No leakage since. A careful inspection of the pan gasket around the perimeter of the pan showed no leaks whatsoever, indicating a good seal job at the pan.

So, I will consider this job done. I took some brake cleaner and cleaned around the power steering pump from up above. It appears that the pump itself is leaking, not the hoses. So, that means the pump has to come off and get re-sealed. Just the right time of year here in Texas to do this. That's my next job on the E500, and the next one after that will be to install new upper strut mounts, and the RDMTek rear lower control arms, and new upper strut rubber bushings. Oh yeah, and my 1-bump spring pads all around....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

Just one more update on this upshift saga... having driven the car for the past couple of days, in a variety of environments and having the opportunity to "push it" a few times. I can say that for the first time in a LONG time, the transmission is acting really as it should be. Shifts under high acceleration at the top of the rev range are nice and crisp; downshifts are coming with more authority and when I expect them to come, and so forth. I still have the reverse clutch "clicking" when the transmission is cold, but backing my car into the garage generally alleviates this issue.

I will continue to run the "replacement" cheap fluid and Mann filter for a few hundred more miles, and then will replace with RedLine D4 synthetic fluid and a fresh new filter. This has really transformed the behavior of my transmission over the rather "mushy" and lazy way it's been increasingly acting over the past few years. A big lesson learned for me, that's for sure.

If anyone else is experiencing transmission shifting/flaring anomalies, a fresh change of fluid and filter is de rigeur. Very much like an upper wiring harness change is de rigeur to baseline things for when the engine is acting up.

Thanks again to everyone for their help and encouragement on this. I still intend to remove and remedy the clicking in reverse, and reseal the exterior of the transmission, but I've bought myself a whole lot of time so that I can work on other projects.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Trae]

Glad you used the cheap stuff first. Dave warned me to do the same, but I thought I would get lucky.
Changed fluid and filter with Redline D4, and now there is a very slow leak "somewhere."
Shifts great though. Just like new.

 

[Trae]

Woops, I added 8.5 quarts of transmission fluid instead of 8.0 quarts. So, I overfilled.
What to do now, if anything? Shifting is great, but there is obviously overflow from somewhere.

 

[gsxr]

Woops, I added 8.5 quarts of transmission fluid instead of 8.0 quarts. So, I overfilled.
What to do now, if anything? Shifting is great, but there is obviously overflow from somewhere.

Check the level on the dipstick with the trans fully hot (minimum 15-20 minutes driving at freeway speeds). If it's much above the MAX mark, you should probably drain a bit out the pan, or siphon out the dipstick tube via a narrow hose. If it's barely above MAX with no evidence of foaming, you could probably leave it alone. If there is any evidence of foaming fluid... reduce the level as soon as you have time. A half quart over isn't an emergency.

 

[Trae]

It is a good 1/2 in. over the max mark with an engine that has been driven 25 mi.

 

[gsxr]

It is a good 1/2 in. over the max mark with an engine that has been driven 25 mi.

I'd drain some and get the level corrected. Make sure you read BOTH side of the dipstick. It can be very difficult to get an accurate reading.

 

[NIGHT RAIDER]

how i can check the level ? with transmission in P or R ?

 

[gsxr]

how i can check the level ? with transmission in P or R ?

Trans in Park, and fully hot, on a level surface...

EDIT: ...and with engine running at idle.

 

[NIGHT RAIDER]

Trans in Park, and fully hot, on a level surface.

THANKS,THATS MEAN I SHOULD CHECK AGAIN IN P CAUSE ALWAYS FOR ALL THE CARS I CHEC K IN R.

 

[NIGHT RAIDER]

I SHOULD CHECK THE LEVEL WHEN THE CAR ON OR OFF?

 

[szvook]

I SHOULD CHECK THE LEVEL WHEN THE CAR ON OR OFF?

The car should be running when checking the level.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for the reminder, Steve. Yes, with engine running at idle. I updated my previous post.

 

[NIGHT RAIDER]

i have checked the level its same in both cases P or R.