Thanks for the helpful information. I have the 2-3 second wait on reverse and clicking, when I first start the car. I will look into changing the fluid and filter as next maintenance project.
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Transmission problem -- VERY reluctant to upshift
- Thread starter gerryvz
- Start date
It could be that the B2 is on its way out.
Gerry - why did you have to remove the crossover pipe??? Access to the torque converter??? Thx.
Yes. And also, in some instances, the trans pan can not be removed as it becomes "pinched" between the pipe & valve body when you try to lower it.
My removal of the cross-pipe was solely because of access to the torque converter drain. I think I would have been OK with the pan alone, but I don't consider a pan-only drain a "real" transmission oil change (particularly given the issue I was having at the time). If I ever hired a mechanic to service my cars and found out that they didn't drain the TC, I'd never go back to them.
Cheers,
Gerry
Cheers,
Gerry
Looks like I am in for some fun this weekend. The cross-pipe...
It's usually not that bad to remove. When re-installing, apply anti-seize to the threads of the 2 manifold bolts. If the two shorter bolts that clamp the crossover to the main pipe are rusted or damaged, you may want to replace those... any hardware store with a good metric fastener assortment will have the proper size.
Based on my experience with the M117 rear cross-pipe (which goes around the end of the block, not below the car as on the E500E) -- which was one of the most single, miserable experiences to R&R on my M117 top-end rebuild a few years back -- I was dreading this on my transmission fluid change-out. I definitely said more than a few cuss words on the removal, and again on the install. The nicest word I can use here was calling that M117 pipe a "whore."
I am very happy to say that it was extremely simple and did not require any extended effort at all to R&R the cross-pipe on the E500E. Only thing was just getting proper socket/extension/wobbly to loosen and tighten the upper two bolts. Other than that, it was a piece of cake. Just be sure everything goes back together in the order that it came apart, and is tightened appropriately.
Cheers,
Gerry
I am very happy to say that it was extremely simple and did not require any extended effort at all to R&R the cross-pipe on the E500E. Only thing was just getting proper socket/extension/wobbly to loosen and tighten the upper two bolts. Other than that, it was a piece of cake. Just be sure everything goes back together in the order that it came apart, and is tightened appropriately.
Cheers,
Gerry
My car has been modified for first gear start, but I honestly don't know what method the PO installed. I've noticed that when cold the transmission is reluctant to upshift from 1st to 2nd. There is no reluctance going from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th regardless of temperature. There are also no issues with down shifting and no delay when shifting to reverse. After the car warms up the transmission shifts perfectly from 1st to 2nd. Any suggestions? I am planning to do the transmission fluid/filter change or at least have my Indie do it because transmission fluid and I don't seem to agree on where it should ultimately end up.
Your car is operating normally per the standard upshift delay mechanism designed to heat the cats faster when the car is cold. Just search for "upshift delay" here and you should find plenty on the topic.
Cheers,
Gerry
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
The reverse delay is very common on EVERY 722.3xx, 722.4xx and the 5 speed 722.5xx boxxes, when milage gets above ~100,000miles or ~150.000km (it depends on driving habits of course - highway/Autobahn cars probably at much higher milages). Its always the reverse clutches which are rather easy to change if the gearbox is out.
Front pump with large cover removed. Remove the first brake band by removing the overload switch and on the opposite side compress the band piston. Then remove band + first clutch pack and its easy to take them out and replace the clutches. They are the large ones that sit around the first clutch pack behind the first brake band.
Ask me how i know, i resealed my primary pump before i inserted my second engine 2-3 weeks ago and then inspected everything inside closely.
Thinking about that now, i should have replaced all clutches in the first pack aswell as the first brake band and the reverse clutches. But so far my reverse delay is "only" 0.5 to (if anyway) 1 second. Thinking about my 5 speed 722.6xx box in the CL, it shifts into all gears immediately from a standstill. This is so amazing compared to the old boxxes we have in our W124s... well...
Front pump with large cover removed. Remove the first brake band by removing the overload switch and on the opposite side compress the band piston. Then remove band + first clutch pack and its easy to take them out and replace the clutches. They are the large ones that sit around the first clutch pack behind the first brake band.
Ask me how i know, i resealed my primary pump before i inserted my second engine 2-3 weeks ago and then inspected everything inside closely.
Thinking about that now, i should have replaced all clutches in the first pack aswell as the first brake band and the reverse clutches. But so far my reverse delay is "only" 0.5 to (if anyway) 1 second. Thinking about my 5 speed 722.6xx box in the CL, it shifts into all gears immediately from a standstill. This is so amazing compared to the old boxxes we have in our W124s... well...
I just started having the exact same upshift issue. It drove perfectly fine one day on a 200 mile trip and then the next day it is having a very tough time shifting to fourth gear. I had the fluid and filter changed today but it has not cured the problem. It shifts to reverse perfectly without delay but it takes some effort to get it to shift into fourth. Not sure what to check.
check the trans fluid level
check the trans fluid level after driving for20-30 minutes. make sure it's not low.
check the trans fluid level after driving for20-30 minutes. make sure it's not low.
In my book, whenever something is done to a car, and a related problem crops up immediately after that, then it's a cause and effect thing. I think somehow your shift knob/linkage work affected the mechanical transmission control. It's just too coincidental not to have some cause and effect.
Need to check shift linkage, bushings, Bowden cable, and vacuum. Normally transmission vacuum controls the smoothness of the shifts, not whether the transmission itself shifts, so I would discount that a bit.
The Bowden cable controls shift points, particularly in relation to the throttle position, vehicle speed and other factors.
The transmission linkage position governs what gear is selected, vs. the gear the transmission is in.
Need to check shift linkage, bushings, Bowden cable, and vacuum. Normally transmission vacuum controls the smoothness of the shifts, not whether the transmission itself shifts, so I would discount that a bit.
The Bowden cable controls shift points, particularly in relation to the throttle position, vehicle speed and other factors.
The transmission linkage position governs what gear is selected, vs. the gear the transmission is in.
+1. Sounds like something going on with the shift linkage. Have you checked the nylon bushings at each end of the shift rod under the car? The shift lever should have zero play, if there's any at all, one of those bushings might be shot. Think there's a GVZ-esque DIY article around here somewhere. *rummages around on messy desk looking for it*
I will roll it up on the race ramps tomorrow. I agree with Gerry, cause and effect. It makes no sense that it works perfectly one day and bonkers the next day. I know it is not internal transmission, it has to be linkage or vacuum related. I'm no trannie tech, but I've never seen one change overnight.
Very interesting thread Gerry!! It sounds like the same problem on mine. Doing kickdown is ok but if i do a full throttle from standstill the transmission (sometimes) won´t shift from 2nd to 3rd. It is also changing gear pretty rough sometimes. The previous owner detected some leak on it and he refilled it and i think it is to much oil in it now. Maybe it is so simple that it is the high volume of oil that causes it to shift so awkward? I will change oil, filter, gasket and oilpan to stop the leak (only when the oil is hot and only sometimes) and then refill with the right amount of oil and se if it solves the problem.
Plan B is to restore the whole transmission..
Plan B is to restore the whole transmission..
I have to admit getting to the shifter nut was definitely a PITA because the original shift knob does not come off the shift rod. You have to stand on your head and work with your hands behind your back to get everything up and out of the way.
Just reviewed the maintenance docs again and saw a note in the OM indicating that the transmission bushings were replaced on 2003.
Just reviewed the maintenance docs again and saw a note in the OM indicating that the transmission bushings were replaced on 2003.
Check my post out above.
Also, the transmission bushings are a very very common wear item. When I lived in Portland, they were lucky to last 4-5 years. Here in Texas, with the heat ... typically they last 2-3 years max. I buy them by the gross (10-15 at a time) and replace 3-4 a year on my cars.
Earlier this year I finally got off my duff and purchased the special pliers that enables you to replace the bushings in 30 seconds, as opposed to 10-15 minutes of cursing and frustration. Best $20 (almost) that I ever spent....
In any case, I'd replace BOTH bushings stat. MBI will have them in stock (you can purchase them from Rick or his son directly at the parts counter, to the right of the main garage door on the shop's SE 13th St. driveway. I've done a how-to ... you can replace with a flat-blade screwdriver and some pliers yourself, but the space is quite tight. Or you can pay them an hour's labor to do it. In any case, if your bushings are 10 years old, they need to be replaced.
Also, the transmission bushings are a very very common wear item. When I lived in Portland, they were lucky to last 4-5 years. Here in Texas, with the heat ... typically they last 2-3 years max. I buy them by the gross (10-15 at a time) and replace 3-4 a year on my cars.
Earlier this year I finally got off my duff and purchased the special pliers that enables you to replace the bushings in 30 seconds, as opposed to 10-15 minutes of cursing and frustration. Best $20 (almost) that I ever spent....
In any case, I'd replace BOTH bushings stat. MBI will have them in stock (you can purchase them from Rick or his son directly at the parts counter, to the right of the main garage door on the shop's SE 13th St. driveway. I've done a how-to ... you can replace with a flat-blade screwdriver and some pliers yourself, but the space is quite tight. Or you can pay them an hour's labor to do it. In any case, if your bushings are 10 years old, they need to be replaced.
Thanks Gerry, planning to crawl under the car today and see if I can find said bushings. I don't think there is any abnormal play in the shifter though. If I can't find anything I might take it to Burback Motors next week. They seem to specialize in mercedes transmissions. I did not get that feel from MBI. I asked them to look at it and all they did was drive it and acknowledge it was not shifting properly. It seems that if the bushings were bad they would have noticed it and offered to replace them while they were doing the fluid change.
They used to rebuild transmissions in their shop .. Hong, their Vietnamese mechanic, did all of their transmissions. But he stopped doing that some years ago - I guess it was just too time and labor intensive to be a money maker for them. So, they farm them out.
I don't know what Burback's true capabilities are. I know Mike Burback personally, he's a good guy, and has experience with the 500E etc. I don't know if he rebuilds transmissions in his shop though. His shop is much smaller in terms of space, resources, parts and mechanics than MBI, and Mike is the backbone of the operation. MBI has plenty of guys (probably 5 or 6, at least) on board who have been working for 30+ years on Benzes, so they've seen it all. Burback gets a lot of his parts through MBI's parts department
Allen Stephens (MBCA Portland president and a friend of mine) uses Burback almost exclusively -- he doesn't like MBI. I know Mike serviced his 500E when he had it, so you may want to talk to him about what Burback's capabilities are. I know Allen thinks they are the bee's knees.
Cheers,
Gerry
The only draw back to a car like this is finding someone you trust to work on it. My experience with most shops is you end up paying for someone's education or fumbling around and I don't like that. I usually do about 90% of my own work but there are some issues I'd rather leave to an expert. Finding the expert that can do the work efficiently is the tough part.
Did you check both? There are two, one at each end of the rod.
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1188-HOW-TO-Replacing-shift-linkage-bushings
:?:
I did not see the front one. I don't feel any sloppiness in the shifter, but I do think the shift rod change is doing something.
Would these bushings actually keep the car from upshifting? It feels like I'm driving in low gear and I know it isn't getting into fourth. It's almost as though the shifter is not really making it to D, but looking at it it appears to be in the correct position.
Would these bushings actually keep the car from upshifting? It feels like I'm driving in low gear and I know it isn't getting into fourth. It's almost as though the shifter is not really making it to D, but looking at it it appears to be in the correct position.
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That's the valve body, you'd see that if you dropped the transmisison pan.
I will almost guarantee this is NOT the problem. Also, if the other part-throttle upshifts are normal, the kickdown solenoid is not stuck in the energized position, otherwise it would start in 1st gear, and wouldn't shift out of 1st gear until 6000rpm, every time.
BTW - very low fluid level typically results in the trans getting "stuck" in 1st gear, should cause only a 3-4 upshift problem.
What happens if you try to move the shift lever forward slightly towards Neutral? Will the trans upshift to 4th, or does it just go from 3rd to neutral?
What happens if you try to move the shift lever forward slightly towards Neutral? Will the trans upshift to 4th, or does it just go from 3rd to neutral?
I haven't tried that. Will give it a try tomorrow.
To me it feels like it's in third gear instead of drive which makes me think its a linkage thing. Maybe the shift rod is bent different causing it to go to third instead of drive (fourth). I'm going to take it apart again tomorrow and see if I can do a better diagnosis.
Hmmm. Does the transmission go into neutral (engine revs change), and then it goes into 4th gear after you move the lever back to D?
Yes, exactly. But I have to move it up to neutral, not just move it in that direction.
He's out this week, I think with sporadic access to email and Internet. So, responses may be delayed from the GSXRman....
I'm out of ideas at this point... it's a pretty unusual failure mode. I'd try poking around the other major MB forums (PeachParts, MBWorld, BenzWorld) and see if you can find anyone else with the same symptoms. I vaguely recall something about a small mesh screen inside the valvebody that can cause lack of upshift if it gets clogged with debris, however I didn't think it was the 3-4 upshift...?
:?:
Thanks, I appreciate all responses. I also read about that little screen thingy. It is just too weird that it works perfectly fine on a 200 mile journey one day, then I change out the shift rod and the next day it won't shift in to fourth. Things that make you go..hmmm? I don't think the car had been driven much over the last year or so. Perhaps the long drive over the coast range shook things up and clogged the screen.
I used to have both small bushings on linkage completely worn (until I changed NSS ) and it did not cause any issues with the performance of tranny. The only issue was that the shift knob had excessive play ...
Usually 3 to 4 th is the fluid issue. I read on other forum couple of people had the same problem on SL's so they changed fluid and it fixed the issue.
Usually 3 to 4 th is the fluid issue. I read on other forum couple of people had the same problem on SL's so they changed fluid and it fixed the issue.
I am convinced it is the linkage. I'll probably take it to Burback for an adjustment. I noticed yesterday while dry shifting that it feels like its clicking into gear about a quarter inch before the D notch.
I screwed up my back yesterday lifting the back end of my riding mower or I'd drag the race ramps back out. It sucks to be old. :|
I screwed up my back yesterday lifting the back end of my riding mower or I'd drag the race ramps back out. It sucks to be old. :|
Sounds vaguely sexual.....
but ... that bad back of yours .... though in the NW, especially this time of year, one does spend a lot of time indoors, so always plenty of time for that sort of recreation .... or going to the neighborhood brewpub to toss back a few pints of IPA...Never too old or sore for that.
It's been a remarkably nice October. Usually pretty nice the first week or so, but this year has been one of the best I can remember. Maybe those SUV emissions are finally paying off.
There is a lot of good beer up here in the Pacific Moist West. I'm a Porter man myself. Never been into the hoppy stuff.
There is a lot of good beer up here in the Pacific Moist West. I'm a Porter man myself. Never been into the hoppy stuff.
Some damned good pinots out of Yamhill County, too. (don't tell the Californians, though...)
Ah-HA! Yes, if the clicks in each position are not lining up exactly in the plastic shift gate, something ain't right.
I hear you on that. Dunno about y'all, but I'm not gettin' any younger, dagnabbit. If you do some of your own work, and have the means, I'd highly recommend installing a lift. Even if you don't have a shop or high-ceiling garage, there are low-rise lifts available that fit in the common 8-9' ceiling garages. The high-lift version that you can walk under is even more spine-friendly. After I got mine in 2007, I spent a lot of time kicking myself for not getting the darn thing years sooner!
The Mercedes club did a little poker run out in Yamhill County a couple weeks a go. It was a beautiful sight to see about ten Mercedes cruising about 80 mph through the twisties in wine country.
I hear you on that. Dunno about y'all, but I'm not gettin' any younger, dagnabbit. If you do some of your own work, and have the means, I'd highly recommend installing a lift. Even if you don't have a shop or high-ceiling garage, there are low-rise lifts available that fit in the common 8-9' ceiling garages. The high-lift version that you can walk under is even more spine-friendly. After I got mine in 2007, I spent a lot of time kicking myself for not getting the darn thing years sooner!
I can't tell you how many times I've looked at lifts but never pulled the trigger. I have a high ceiling in my shop so there is good reason not to have one.
I did a frame off (sub frame) on 1968 Camaro without a lift. It took me four years and I must have spent three of them laying on my back under that f...ing car.
