AMG and RENNtech swaybar reproductions

[gsxr]

I seriouls would be interested in at least 3 sets. I have shipped stuff to Indonesia vis USPS, why is shipping an issue?

The size exceeds the USPS limits for most, if not all, countries. Weight isn't a problem, it's the dimensions.

 

[Roma_500E]

See the following for a % increase in stiffness as the bars get larger: http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/BL-281.pdf

FWIW, going from stock 28mm to 30mm would be a 32% increase in roll stiffness. Those of us with staggered wheels, would really benefit from a 20mm+ rear bar...

I never thought I got that much of improvement. I guess that is why my mounting bushing bracket cracked few times

What is the stock size of rear sway bar ?

 

[Glen]

Stock rear bar is 18mm.

 

[Cannoli]

I'm in ... please consider me in the mix.

 

[500AMM]

Hi,

This is definitely interesting, even for us on the other side of the pond. I would take one front, also the rear - if it's made. As a contribution for getting a production run possible I can consider to take some extra sets. The cost for 3-5 sets shipped by boat is slightly more than one set.

The table from Whiteline http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/BL-281.pdf is typical and shows the theoretical increase in rigidity based on the formula for polar moment of inertia:
I[SUB]p[/SUB] = π · (D[SUP]4[/SUP] - d[SUP]4[/SUP])/32 (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torsion-shafts-d_947.html)
It is a common way to use a theoretical expression based on the change in the cross section at one point on the bar. However, it's not entirely the true picture due to variable shape over the entire swaybar, only physical testing will give exact differences. Out from a fatigue perspective I would like a tapered design towards the end points on the front swaybar, not the RENNtech type.

But I have some concerns about durability & warranty. So a question to Jackasic; what is the producers concerns around that?


-arnt-

 

[Jackasic]

A stock 124 bar won't work - needs to be a stock 500E bar due to some special bends for clearance.

that's why I need one, sadly I don't know all the ins and outs

 

[Jackasic]

I basically need a stock bar and some pictures of how it hooks up. Small runs of 10 are doable and I should be able to keep the price under $350 a bar. If i can get commitment of 10~15 I'll order an extra 5~10 to get the cost down. We can also do new bushing in poly, just need some stock ones for reference. In increasing the front bar, I would recommend a balanced upgrade of a new, larger rear bar to keep things stable. The r107 bars we are doing are 28mm front and 22mm to make a balanced upgrade from stock.

I'll also do custom powder coating colors on the bars if you commit to buy. Turn around time is probably 3~4 months to get it all hashed out.

 

[jnes]

I'm also interested in this production run. I would take one set, front and rear. Maybe we can combine shipping with those who live other side of the pond..

 

[500AMM]

I'm also interested in this production run. I would take one set, front and rear. Maybe we can combine shipping with those who live other side of the pond..

Hello,

That sounds immediately like a good idea, but keep in mind that the VAT and custom fee adds up in the receiving country. Then you get extra cost for shipping to each taker + the national VAT and custom fee in that country again. Or the cost for the drive to the pick-up point, and then VAT on the return to the home country. Not easy to come around the VAT claims in "urop", but if you have any ideas please let us know.

Here is a VAT list:

Australia

Belgium

Canada

Denmark

Estonia

Finland

France

Greece

India

Ireland

Italia

China

Cyprus

Latvia

Lithuania

Luxembourg

Malta

Netherland

Norway

Poland

Portugal

Russia

Singapore

Slovakia

Slovenia

Spain

United Kingdom

Sweden

South-Africa

Thailand

Czech Republic

Turkey

Germany

Hungary

USA

Austria

[TD="class: xl24"]AU
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]10
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]BE
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]21
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]CA
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]5
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]DK
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]25
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]EE
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]FI
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]23
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]FR
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]19.6
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]EL
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]23
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]IN
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]12.5
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]IE
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]23
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]IT
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]21
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]CN
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]17
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]CY
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]15
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]LV
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]22
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]LT
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]21
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]LU
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]15
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]MT
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]18
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]NL
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]21
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]N
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]25
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]PL
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]23
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]PT
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]23
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]RU
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]18
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]SI
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]7
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]SK
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]SI
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]ES
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]18
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]UK
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]SE
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]25
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]SA
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]14
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]TH
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]7
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]CZ
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]TU
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]18
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]DE
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]19
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]HU
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]27
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]US
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]- per state
[/TD] [TD="class: xl24"]AT
[/TD][TD="class: xl24"]20
[/TD]

 

[Jelmer]

NL went from 19 to 21% ...

 

[Jackasic]

Jono has a spare front and rear and is going to ship them out.​I'll get them off to my sway bar guy and see what we can do.

 

[500AMM]

.
Good news!

 

[modzona]

Hi guys.
If you cant make this happen. And the reason im saying this is, because you have talked about this for about 3years now.
I have talked too Ake at Hedgehog Tuning and Motorsport in Thailand. And he will have no problem in making front and rear swaybars. In 32mm front and 20mm rear.

 

[Glen]

Hi guys.
If you cant make this happen. And the reason im saying this is, because you have talked about this for about 3years now.
I have talked too Ake at Hedgehog Tuning and Motorsport in Thailand. And he will have no problem in making front and rear swaybars. In 32mm front and 20mm rear.

He's pretty busy with other things, has he indicated what his time frame is? I have one of his 19mm rear bars on my daughter's 190E. Price, even with shipping was very affordable too.

 

[modzona]

He will need about a month.

He did make a stock 28-22mm bar, And that he sold with poly for 300usd
Rear 20mm for a w201 he takes 140usd with poly.
And he thinks that the bigger front and rear bar for w124 will be around the same price..


Top the 28-22mm he got made. And below a stock E60 bar

 

[Roma_500E]

I already got the front E60 bar so will consider rear one and poly bushings for the front.

What about front sway bar bracket mounts ?

Is there any upgrades available ? I replaced mine and they look like weak .

What about shipping charges from Thailand ?

 

[Glen]

For my rear W201 bar, it was about $200 total and took about 3 weeks to arrive at my door.

 

[Roma_500E]

For my rear W201 bar, it was about $200 total and took about 3 weeks to arrive at my door.

Y mean 200 including bar and shipping charges ? or total shipping and custom fees ? if it is including bar then sounds very reasonable.

Any ideas about quality of iron used in those Thailand bars ? Is it the same as German made bars ?

 

[Glen]

$200 total = bar + shipping to my door.

I'm not a metallurgist but the bar has been on the car for a year and a half and it's been working fine. Combined with a trimmed S124 front bar, the car handles feels great.

 

[samiam44]

If my bar is stock..It has the stock taper. Mine is worn lots in the inner bushing area due to dirt. Will these come bare or powder coated for durability?

I'll buy one for $350. Local pickup available in Houston Gerry?


Michael

 

[Jackasic]

just waiting on the stock bars to arrive from Jono. As soon as they do I'll ship them off to get the prototypes made, probably a 30 day turn on those. Bushings are about 4~6 weeks out from now at they are cast and not milled (takes time to make the molds, get the samples in, verify, them go in to production). Not sure what shipping is going to be to the EU, might be best to ship a group of them at once to get the shipping cost down.

 

[gsxr]

Just curious - is anyone on the forum really interested in poly bushings? The OE factory bushings should work fine (available to fit up to 32mm fronts, up to 20mm rear, I think).

I like the liner inside the factory bushings that essentially eliminates noise and ensures silent operation. For track use the poly might be some advantage. Or they might be a bit cheaper than OE.

:?:

 

[szvook]

Just curious - is anyone on the forum really interested in poly bushings?

For a DD [daily driver], no.

 

[Jackasic]

I would recommend them, but you are free to install what you like. The purpose of poly is to limit the flexion of the sway bar. In essence, when it is transferring power side to side, the natural deflection of the stock rubber bushings negates the force transfer a larger bar gives you. This is also why stock bushings wear out, from repeated compression they tend to deform and wear. Poly gets a bad rap generally because to stiff a poly is used or it is used in a situation (suspension arms) where is has to move in multiple planes, and lack of grease cause it to squeak.

If I sell the bars, they will come with them as it is the best solution. You can use to use what best fits you interests though, everyone has a different desired outcome.

 

[500AMM]

Out from a wear point I guess the poly bushings will be the best, but I have no experience BTW. The noise can be killed with inspection and adding grease before they dry out, which I guess contributes to a longer lifetime too. To achieve at least some comfort I would use the E60 AMG bushings, I checked with Speed Autoteile and they are still available. I don't recall the price now, but not millions..

As for overseas shipping to us "jurops" I recommend sea freight, which will be a fraction of air freight in this case. Air freight may be close to the price on the swaybars due to impractical size/form and weight. I checked with the shipping agency I have used, and the sea freight will be just a bit more for 3-5 swaybars than one alone.

I am not sure about group shipping. See my post #59 with the VAT list. Let's say I organize the import for all Europeans, then I get 25% VAT on the purchase price and shipping cost + custom fee (30-40 Euro). Then it will be shipped to the individuals and they get another shipping cost + national VAT + custom fee. So I think the savings on a group overseas shipping is less than the additional cost for a second shipping out from Norway. For the Norwegians it would be cheaper though, or those who can do a local pick-up from me.

I have not launched this group buy on our national MB club forum yet, only member modzona here is involved. But I've seen several requests for stronger swaybars to the 124, so I guess 5 sets would easily be sold here in Norway.

-a-

 

[rol607]

Any further developments?

 

[Jackasic]

sorry, been out and about. jono was nice enough to loan me a front and rear bar, as well as some springs. Going to ship these off to my supplier and get the ball rolling.

 

[gsxr]

What springs did Jono send...?

:?:

 

[Jackasic]

H&Rs I think?

 

[gsxr]

The springs I think most people would be interested in (myself included) would be replicas of the AMG E60 springs. I had H&R's on my 92 and removed them... front was too low, rear was too high even after fiddling with SLS. Problem is sourcing the E60 springs, they are available new from MB but they are $$$.

I don't think I'd spend a dime on duplicating H&R's though...

 

[gsxr]

Pics of the E60 springs from Scott Shell:

 

[jhodg5ck]

Brandon IIRC is not looking to replicate them, but rather use them for a dimensional basis.

for me @ least, I want More aggressive then the H&R's.

The white springs are AMG bits that were off a 126 w/ low miles, again though just needed some to get dimensions. From there B-man can play..;-)

jono

 

[Jackasic]

I pretty much just need the dimensions and spring rates, there rest I can get made to spec.

 

[gsxr]

I pretty much just need the dimensions and spring rates, there rest I can get made to spec.

I've never been able to get accurate dimensions for the E60 springs... rough numbers, but probably 5% margin of error, if not worse. Maybe we can convince Ron to get some good data from his shiny new set.

 

[szvook]

We can also use the Brabus spring's specs and if they are the same as AMG, we can make mold that would apply to both.

 

[samiam44]

So does anyone have a renntech bar?

 

[gsxr]

So does anyone have a renntech bar?

Yep. Dunno if it did much besides lighten my wallet, add weight to the front end, and reduce body roll a little...

 

[szvook]

Dave, were you able to gauge how the car's body roll was affected with H&R springs? Did you have the renntech bar on at that time?

 

[gsxr]

Dave, were you able to gauge how the car's body roll was affected with H&R springs? Did you have the renntech bar on at that time?

Different cars. 92 had H&R, 94 has the 32mm sway bar.

 

[samiam44]

What's so hard Dave?

"I've never been able to get accurate dimensions for the E60 springs" Diameter of wire, overall height, Diameter of spring. Are they progressive? Most spring shops have a prototype group for small runs- should be easy.

 

[gsxr]

I can't get my hands on a set, and the numbers I received from different people varied too much to know which (if either set) were accurate. The dimensions need to be within 0.1mm for wire diameter and probably within 1-2mm for free length. Need coil count too. I'll be happy to measure a set of someone can send them to me.

 

[samiam44]

Find a spring shop which WILL duplicate them... have them send them direct to the manufacture. 0.1mm? That's 4 thousands of a inch. You'll have to strip the paint locally to determine that accurately. I'd be amazed if it wasn't a standard metric wire size... AMG wasn't MB in those days.
I can accurately measure and make a drawing in solidworks or autocad for a vendor.

Michael

 

[gsxr]

Factory springs vary in 0.1mm increments, based on my measurements. Measuring in multiple places around the spring you can get enough of an average to estimate to the nearest 0.1mm, probably with ±0.1mm accuracy. The numbers I was getting for other springs (not E60 specifically) varied by up to an order of magnitude (1.0mm) which was useless. The numbers I got for the E60 springs were different than expected and I simply don't trust them to be accurate enough to commission a production run. Oh, and I never got coil counts either.

 

[Jackasic]

got around to looking at the bars. the stock front bar is 22mm and the rear bar is 13mmm The rear may be a stock w124 bar and not a e500. What size bar were you guys looking for int he front? I was going to balance the rear bar to match. Other wise the cars are just going to push like a stock 126.

 

[Jackasic]

I have a sample set of H&R springs, big question is what are you looking for? I can get them made to any heights or spring rate, just need to know what you want to buy. Jono wants some track springs, so that is one thing. What else?

 

[gsxr]

got around to looking at the bars. the stock front bar is 22mm and the rear bar is 13mmm The rear may be a stock w124 bar and not a e500. What size bar were you guys looking for int he front? I was going to balance the rear bar to match. Other wise the cars are just going to push like a stock 126.

Stock 500E bar is 28mm front (22mm at the ends), rear bar is 18mm. Pretty sure most folks are interested in 30mm (AMG) or 32mm (RENNtech) front with probably 20mm rear?

W124 sway bar size/spec sheet:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/W124/124_swaybars.pdf

For the springs, the only thing I personally would be interested is replicas of the E60 AMG springs, but that won't happen until we get exact measurements from a set. (Ron McMalachite? Where art thou?)

 

[gerryvz]

The Feind (Jackasic) Motorsports 560SEC rear bar I recently installed is 19mm in diameter. IIRC the stock SEC rear bar is 14 or 15mm.

 

[gsxr]

I b'leive this topic was about 124, not 126...?

 

[gerryvz]

My eyes tell me that the topic is about AMG and RENNtech swaybar reproductions.

 

[gsxr]

My eyes tell me that the topic is about AMG and RENNtech swaybar reproductions.

Yes, in the 500E/E500 forum, not that silly W126/C126 subterranean forum.

Forum -- 500E / E500 -- Mechanical Brakes, Suspension and Steering -- AMG and RENNtech swaybar reproductions