Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid for Automatic Transmissions

[gsxr]

Is the leak at the driver side or passenger side of the pan? Front or rear?

 

[jftu105]

This is what I know now. Tightened the bolts once again to 20 N-m when the transmission was cold through the night. The leaking is definitely less. Drove 17 miles, via some high way, to work and parked the car with a container under the transmission. After 6-7 hours, when I was about to drive it again, I checked the container. There were a few drops but much, much less that last night. Parked the car to do a little shopping with the container underneath. After about 20 minutes, there was no drops.

My conclusion is that the oil pan will seal properly if the clamping force is sufficient. When the transmission heats up with 20 N-m as cold torque, the clamping force is high enough to prevent any leaking due to thermal expansions (which increasing the clamping force, denoted as thermally induced clamping force). Therefore, I would assume that a torque at about 22 N-m should be sufficient to seal the oil pan when it is cold.

Will check the leak tomorrow morning. Then will drive it to vote tomorrow. Might just drive it a few days to let things settle and adjust the torque again.

If you ask me what is the most critical, I will say: Use the genuine rubber gasket, not any after market ones. Elring is not good enough (too soft), let alone URO. Genuine rubber should be firmer and provides better sealing for the same torque. It is $16 at FCP vs $6 for Elring. The saving of $10 is not worth it and I can't even buy any black-market anti-depressant pills with it.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

My last attempt. It still leaks over night, but less, perhaps 1/3 less but still substantial and not acceptable. Raised the torque to 23 N-m but it does not stop the leak. Therefore, I am going for my last attempt.

I acquired a used oil pan off eBay. It came with its own gasket. I applied some silicon fluid over the gasket and let it absorb it for several days. Checked the flatness, it is flat enough for me.

Will put this used pan in and see how it goes. If the leak persistent, time to say goodbye to the car and start my own pick-a-part yard.

No matter what, will call the insurance to bring back the 1992 with beautiful paint to enjoy driving it.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Is the leak at the driver side or passenger side of the pan? Front or rear?

The leak is always on the same spot, the passenger side, near the drain plug and closer to the rear corner, about 1.5 to 2" off. I checked the transmission carefully, but I could not detect any defects on the transmission flange on that spot. I did find the new MB oil paint not exactly flat at that spot and did some filing to make it flat (as far as I can tell).

Just drained the fluid and will take off the new MB oil pan with the Elring gasket. Should have gone for the MB gasket. In that way, there will not parts suspect. I used Elring many times in the past without issues.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Took the new MB pan off and put the eBay genuine, vintage MB pan up. Tightened it to 14 N-m. First to 12 N-m, then to 14 N-m. So far no leak at all.

Before I put the eBay pan up, I used a blade to scrap off any residues on the transmission flange. I can see some un-flatness on the flange after scraping at where it leaked. Took some nice sand paper wrapped onto a flat metal piece and I sanded it good. I then wiped the entire flange clean before putting the old pan up.

Now, examining the new pan. The flatness is not quite right at the leak spot. I did the same to sand it down carefully. Looking at the rubber gasket, it does look a bit twisted at where it leaked.

I hope this saga is behind me with this old pan. I will call it an old pan pal if it works.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Progressively increased the torque to 15 N-m. So far, no leak. The ultimate test is the cold temperature over night.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

I admit defeat. There must be some defects on the transmission flange mating to the gasket of the oil pan. I could not tell but the leak is there on the same spot, no matter how much I tighten it. The tightening simply increase the deformation on the oil pan, not increasing the clamping force.

Already called the insurance to add my 1992 and will get a license plate tomorrow. It is a new day for America and it is a new "vintage" car for my driving needs.

Will retire the car! Perhaps, the last try is to use gasket sealer on top of the rubber gasket as hail merry.

jftu105

 

[yevgenievich]

I had a damaged flange like that where it would not seal. Grey rtv on the gasket surfaces made it seal.

 

[jftu105]

Tried it once but with only a thin layer of RTV. Will give it a try. Thanks.

 

[jftu105]

Did the RTV today. Tightened it to 13 N-m. After tightening, there are beads of RTV being squeezed out. Will let it cure for a day before filling in the fluid. In the mean time, acquired a license plate for the 1992 Sportline. Will enjoy driving the 1992. If the leak of the 1994 stops, will drive it as DD until it hits 222222 miles. If not, will park and drain the fluid as a parts car.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

What puzzled me the most is how hard it is to seal the fluid with nearly no pressure. It is just an oil pan and the transmission fluid drips down and stays there before it gets sucked up through the filter to the valve body and the torque converter. I could not tell exactly what is the fault on the flange either. When I used a blade to lightly scrap the flange, I can see that the middle of the flange is slightly lower than the edges on either side but the difference is so small that I do not know why the rubber gasket could not fill in and seal it.

Now with RTV, I wonder if it would seal. Will fill in the fluid later this afternoon. Could it be possible that there is a leak above the transmission housing? There is something on the transmission housing on that side, the passenger side. This transmission was rebuilt by a local transmission shop in NC by the previous owner.

Will be driving the 1992 today.

jftu105

 

[gsxr]

Could it be possible that there is a leak above the transmission housing? There is something on the transmission housing on that side, the passenger side.

Yep... there are several things on the passenger side that can cause a tiny leak. The Bowden cable O-ring and B1/B2 covers are the most common, and also the end of the pivot shaft that is visible on that side (this can be covered with RTV if leaking). Less likely, but possible, is the dipstick tube O-ring.

 

[jftu105]

I think that this is the end. Even with the RTV, it still leaks slightly. Finally, after nearly two days of curing, I poured the fluid back in. Drove around and then parked with a container underneath to monito the leak. There is still some, although not much. I put a piece of blue paper above the pan to see if any fluid leaking from above. There was none, it seems. Anyway, I won't fix it any further. Will still drive it a few days and then take off the insurance and license.

This car went through a lot, with many near death experiences, such as a blown head gasket and rebuilt transmission, etc.

It served its duty well. Time to let it rest and devote itself to keep others alive.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Yep... there are several things on the passenger side that can cause a tiny leak. The Bowden cable O-ring and B1/B2 covers are the most common, and also the end of the pivot shaft that is visible on that side (this can be covered with RTV if leaking). Less likely, but possible, is the dipstick tube O-ring.

View attachment 200729

I think that I can confirm now that there are leaks from the top. Left over night over 12 hours, there are some fluid in the container. Went under the car and touched the transmission flange above the pan. It is oily, indicating the leaks from the top as well. Every time you have a problem with multiple sources, it gets quite complicated. I had oil pan deformation, gasket failures, plus leakage from the top. With a new pan, new gasket, and RTV, I believe that I had eliminated these these sources, leaving the only causes as those four arrows shown by Dave. Most likely, it is the second arrow from the left in the image from Dave. I will spray some starting fluid and apply some RTV as the last attempt.

It is simply not worth the cost to fix the leak by taking out the transmission and replacing the seals. This is WAY beyond my capability.

jftu105

 

[gsxr]

All of the seals in the photo above can be replaced without removing the transmission from the car, but it is not fun. The B1 cover is the worst, the Bowden cable is second most unpleasant. B2 and the dipstick tube aren't too hard. Applying the blob of RTV at the external shaft, right next to the center pan bolt, is easy.

 

[jftu105]

All of the seals in the photo above can be replaced without removing the transmission from the car, but it is not fun. The B1 cover is the worst, the Bowden cable is second most unpleasant. B2 and the dipstick tube aren't too hard. Applying the blob of RTV at the external shaft, right next to the center pan bolt, is easy.

I will do the dipstick tube. The other three, B1, B2, and Bowden cable unit are beyond my skill level. I heard it from the local MB shop that the transmission could be shifted to give more room for servicing the Bowden cable unit.

Just a blob of RTV and pray.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Did some more investigation, there is no leaking from the oil pan anymore. I stuff a piece of blue paper rag over the oil pan and no leaks, not trace of oil, from the oil pan. The blue paper is a bit soaked with oil, not much. Put my fingers over the flange, I could tell oil over there. In particular near the first arrow from the right, B2(?). Right next to the center bolt, where a red RTV is in Dave's picture, is the head of a tightening bolt. I am going to spray some starting fluid to B2 and apply a bead of RTV over it. No skill to replace the seal there.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

This video from Ken gives a very clear description of the leaks over the oil pan. I will try the fill-in tube seal.

I can now confirm that it is B2. After I wiped everything dry, after 30 minutes or so, ran my fingers across, it is at the bottom of B2 is wet.

Should I try this?



jftu105

 

[gsxr]

Stop leak products rarely work well, unfortunately... and it can take hundreds of miles / many hours of driving to see if they will swell seals & reduce a leak, or not.

If you definitely have a leak from the B2 cover, you're in luck, B2 is one of the easier seals to replace. It's not fun due to the limited space, but there's no high-pressure spring fighting you like on the B1. The B2 cover O-ring is 005-997-70-48, $4.70 for OE/Genuine. The cover will press inward a few mm, then remove the retaining circlip, pry out the cover, replace O-ring... installation is the reverse. Just make sure no dirt or debris falls inside while the cover is out.

:jon:

 

[jftu105]

Stop leak products rarely work well, unfortunately... and it can take hundreds of miles / many hours of driving to see if they will swell seals & reduce a leak, or not.

If you definitely have a leak from the B2 cover, you're in luck, B2 is one of the easier seals to replace. It's not fun due to the limited space, but there's no high-pressure spring fighting you like on the B1. The B2 cover O-ring is 005-997-70-48, $4.70 for OE/Genuine. The cover will press inward a few mm, then remove the retaining circlip, pry out the cover, replace O-ring... installation is the reverse. Just make sure no dirt or debris falls inside while the cover is out.

:jon:

Thanks a lot. I watched a few videos on this but lying on the ground to fix something is not a favorable job of mine. I might get a quote to see how much it costs for professional help.

The only seal that works at least for a few years is the AC seal. Coolant seal might work as well. Other than that, I never see anything works, in particular related to the oil leak.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Called a professional shop, the most reputed MB specialist locally, about the B2 service. They told me that the car is too old to do only the B2 service. They would do the entire seals of the entire transmission, taking it out, which includes front, rear, B1, B2, Bowden unit, etc. The grand total is $2000. I could buy another E320, 1994 with the cost. Bye, bye, my hard working E320, 1994. You did your part and overcame a lot. Time to rest and keep others alive.

The B2 leak is not any less with the hail merry stop leak treatment. It costed me $6.00 to try.

jftu105

 

[gsxr]

Yeah, shops always want to sell you everything including the kitchen sink. For $2000 you can get a complete rebuilt unit with new clutches & bands. If you pulled the transmission you could reseal the entire thing yourself for like $100 in new seals.

You don't need to do a "B2 service", just replace the B2 cover O-ring. Few hours of labor and five bucks for a new O-ring. There's nothing else that can be done with B2 with the transmission still in the car.

The stop leak takes quite a while to have an effect, as it works by swelling seals / O-rings, and this takes time... need to drive it daily for a week and see if there's any change.

 

[jftu105]

I think that the stop leak probably did more harm than good. It was a hail merry attempt. Drove the car again to work and the leaking is pretty bad. Now, I am not sure if the oil pan is sealed or the B2 has become so bad.

I am wondering about the Odd of oil pan and B2 failing at the same time. I think that they might be related, one triggering the other. I think that the over-torque deformed the oil pan and eventually damaged the rubber gasket. The leak progressively became worse. Due to the leak, the transmission was under filled, which might have led to higher temperature. In some way, it led to weaker B2 seal.

I will let the car sit with a container underneath. May be next summer I would be motivated enough to try the B2 reseal.. For now, I will enjoy my 1992 sportsline.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

I think that the stop leak probably did more harm than good. It was a hail merry attempt. Drove the car again to work and the leaking is pretty bad. Now, I am not sure if the oil pan is sealed or the B2 has become so bad.

I am wondering about the Odd of oil pan and B2 failing at the same time. I think that they might be related, one triggering the other. I think that the over-torque deformed the oil pan and eventually damaged the rubber gasket. The leak progressively became worse. Due to the leak, the transmission was under filled, which might have led to higher temperature. In some way, it led to weaker B2 seal.

I will let the car sit with a container underneath. May be next summer I would be motivated enough to try the B2 reseal.. For now, I will enjoy my 1992 sportsline.

jftu105

The leak from B2 has become so bad. I placed a piece of the blue paper towner under B2 and a little tip hanging down. Over night, it leaked easily 100 CC of fluid. Looking under, I can see the dripping of fluid from the tip of the blue paper. The oil pan is dry. After overcoming one problem, now comes another. If I fix the B2, B1 is next in line. It is officially a parts car. Will take out the insurance today and surrender the license plate.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Plate surrendered and insurance removed. Next summer, I might get motivated enough to take down the entire transmission (if I am skillful enough) and then seal everything. After that, the car will get a new life. For now, it will sit and occasionally gets driven around the neighborhood to exercise a bit, assuming no vital parts are removed to keep other cars alive. A pan is placed under and I assume that the leak will eventually stop when the fluid level is below the B2 seal.

The 1992 is enjoyable to drive. I am still getting used to the shift from 1 to 3; after that, it is smooth from 3 to 4.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

After several days of parking, I checked the pan underneath. There are some leaks but sort of stopped. I assume that the fluid level is now lower than the B2 sealing point. This is good because I will be able to drive the car a little by moving it here and there. Next summer, I will tackle the B2 per Dave's instruction.

For now, it is fun to drive the 1992. It looks good and it drives good.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Yesterday I drove the car around the sub-division for a few miles until the engine was warm. Parked the car and placed a pan underneath. After 24 hours, there are only a few drops in the pan. This is what I have concluded. First, no leaks from the lower oil pan anymore. This is a progress. The leak is mainly from the B2 seal. With the fluid level lower than the B2, the leak would stop. During driving, some fluid would come out and the fluid circulates around. Therefore, I can exercise the car once every few weeks until next summer when I am motivated enough to do the B2.

jftu105