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Electric car impact on fuel availabilty and pricing in future(?)
- Thread starter JC220
- Start date
Good range. A shift is coming
www.latestcarnews.net
BYD launches electric SUV with 1,030 km range - Latest Car News
The Chinese brand BYD, which is slowly making its way in Europe, has launched a new model. And it looks like it will reach European markets..
www.latestcarnews.net
EQXX Stuns With Amazing Real World Long Range Performance - MBWorld
The Mercedes EQXX is more real-world ready than you would think. YouTuber Harry Metcalfe gets to experience the car and talk with engineers.
mbworld.org
A shift indeed… but who’s surprised it’s Mercedes.
maw
The V8's are back at Mercedes-Benz
www.caranddriver.com
V-8 to Return to Mercedes-AMG C-Class and E-Class Models by 2026
The C63 and E63 could soon accommodate a hybrid powertrain with the twin-turbo 4.0-liter V-8 to assuage those not satisfied by four- and six-cylinder setups.
Oh no they're not!The V8's are back at Mercedes-Benz
V-8 to Return to Mercedes-AMG C-Class and E-Class Models by 2026
The C63 and E63 could soon accommodate a hybrid powertrain with the twin-turbo 4.0-liter V-8 to assuage those not satisfied by four- and six-cylinder setups.
Mercedes Won't Bring Back The V8 For AMG C63, E63 After All: Report
Auto Motor und Sport cites an AMG insider saying the V8 engine won't return in the C63 and E63, claiming the original report is "pure nonsense."
www.motor1.com
Soooooo green.
www.texasmonthly.com
Thousands of Old Wind Turbine Blades Pile Up in West Texas
Officials in Sweetwater say an out-of-state company has made their town a dump for the seldom-seen trash created by renewable energy.
www.texasmonthly.com
This car is made for Dwarfs!
It’s not ugly it’s UUUUGLY
Thank God I’m never going to own one.
Same here, it's unbearably ugly with new designs today.It’s not ugly it’s UUUUGLY
Focus: EV broken? Finding a technician to fix it may take a while
EV broken? Finding a technician to fix it may take a while
Then there’s this… although young classics have much of the same problems.
maw
EV broken? Finding a technician to fix it may take a while
Then there’s this… although young classics have much of the same problems.
maw
They're not even trying to hide their hatred of Americans any longer.
insideevs.com
US Energy Secretary's Staff Blocked Charger With ICE Car On EV Road Trip
The incident happened this summer during an EV road trip between Charlotte (NC) and Memphis (TN) aimed at promoting the White House's green energy investments.
insideevs.com
For anyone who wants a more data driven analysis ...
Are Teslas worth the price? How EVs compare with gas-powered vehicles
maw
Are Teslas worth the price? How EVs compare with gas-powered vehicles
maw
And she's paying for it,They're not even trying to hide their hatred of Americans any longer.
US Energy Secretary's Staff Blocked Charger With ICE Car On EV Road Trip
The incident happened this summer during an EV road trip between Charlotte (NC) and Memphis (TN) aimed at promoting the White House's green energy investments.
This quote jumped out at me. Upgrading the electrical panel? That's thousands of dollars, not hundreds. Electricians ain't cheap, yo:
Whether an EV is worth buying will depend on other factors, too. With Level 2 chargers, some homes might need upgraded electrical panels that can add hundreds of dollars in extra installation costs. But then again, you could get by with a cheaper Level 1 charger if you only drive about 20 miles each day.
After 14 months and 16K miles of EV ownership, my direct costs (depreciation and juice) are hovering just a couple pennies under $3.00/mile. Including the idiotic wealth transfer of $7500 from the rest of you. Used prices of EVs have cratered. I anticipated this and purchased extended factory warranty coverage out to 7/100 in order to smooth this financial nightmare out. Same story with the PHEV we owned from 2014-2022.
I did not include insurance nor personal property taxes in the cost calc.
Tires will be needed by the 20-25K mile mark, so that'll be another $2 grand I can set on fire.
I did not include insurance nor personal property taxes in the cost calc.
Tires will be needed by the 20-25K mile mark, so that'll be another $2 grand I can set on fire.
I just got back from London and it looks like just about every car from 1981-2002 has been excommunicated. There was a street that I walked on a regular bases that had a beautiful late model 928S2, R107 420SL and a bunch of other cool cars that are now all gone or under car covers. I did get to see some cool old historic vehicles on the road like this pre war Phantom in the middle of Central London but sadly, many of the cars that I love have been put away or will be scrapped as the city council is now offering up to 2000GBP to scrap a non ULEZ compliant car
My brother has a very nice 2004 CLK270CDI that he's considering scrapping. I'm considering bringing it here and transferring the drive train into a CLK320. The little car can scoot and get him 50mpg on a run.
My brother has a very nice 2004 CLK270CDI that he's considering scrapping. I'm considering bringing it here and transferring the drive train into a CLK320. The little car can scoot and get him 50mpg on a run.
Interesting on day 1 of the 2023 UAW strike…
www.reuters.com
maw
Tesla reinvents carmaking with quiet breakthrough
Tesla has combined a series of innovations to make a technological breakthrough that could transform the way it makes electric vehicles and help Elon Musk achieve his aim of halving production costs.
maw
An opinion piece??? By a nameless, faceless “Editorial Board” of a Rupert Murdoch company? You’re kidding, right?
maw
Nope. I just filter them all out looking for data. I need journalists to gather and present data. That research saves me work. Their thoughts on that data is vastly less useful to me, most of the time. I see too much low quality thinking out there, probably because people accept opinion as data.
maw
You earlier posted a "data-driven" analysis (your words) which was written by a hack with an undergrad in English.
You're kidding, right?
Thanks for the opinion piece. The UAW strikes may likely cause the big 3 more and more difficulty in funding their pivot from ICE to EV powered cars …. Ultimately resulting in market share shift to Chinese EV makers and a weakened domestic manufacturing base.
I do not believe that the current presidential administration has thought through its attempts at accelerating the EV shift. Even now, the president, in his public statements, seems to ignore the costs of the EV shift being placed on the automakers while supporting demands for 32 hour work week. Accelerating this shift at the cost of national security and benefiting a global strategic rival is a huge self-own.
EV production requires less human input. This is an economic reality, same for China (with its youth unemployment rate), Germany and other countries involved. Maybe the strikes there are coming, and maybe they’ll get 20% guaranteed pay raises too. I have no idea. I view all of this as outside the realm of the politician who happens to be in office at any particular time. They are all subject to the same economic changes. As far as I can tell, Elon Musk is doing more to “accelerate” this transition than any politician.
It’s always funny how the same “small government” people want government to save them from the economic realities being inflicted upon them by their corporate heroes. Confusion at its finest — their sociological narratives are at odds with their economic realities, but sociology wins.
So who’s really being taken for a ride?
maw
It’s always funny how the same “small government” people want government to save them from the economic realities being inflicted upon them by their corporate heroes. Confusion at its finest — their sociological narratives are at odds with their economic realities, but sociology wins.
So who’s really being taken for a ride?
maw
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I can’t find a way to unlock this article so I’ll post it here in pictures. I think we all sense that this really comes down to the batteries, the costs and availability of materials for them, whether those materials can be recycled, etc., etc. I suppose some of us may think it’s purely political but that probably doesn’t stand up to rigorous scrutiny. More on the cost side, and how predictions of EV adoption go up and down based upon materials input costs, since everyone knows labor and other production costs will drop…
maw
maw
Attachments
"They" are also assuming demand will increase, and I'm not sure sure about that, even if material/manufacturing costs continue to decline... and even if the sticker prices of the EV's decline substantially.
All the starry-eyed projections about EV adoption appear to be from sources that desperately want this to happen, without any real buyer momentum to support rapid EV adoption. Politics muddies the water a bit since the governments all seem enamored with pushing EV's to be adopted faster than infrastructure is available, and/or faster than buyers are changing their religion from ICE to EV. The whole thing just seems forced on an unrealistic timeline.
The assumption that people would rather skip the gas pump seems real enough to me from the dozen or so people I know who have bought an EV. It seems like moving from an Android to an Apple phone ("why TF didn't I do this sooner?!?!"). The preference for $100 oil seems far less than religious.
I agree it's being enthusiastically pushed and the "as soon as we can" timeline seems contrived, but "ASAP" always seems contrived -- most people don't like change. Those who natively embrace change aren't having so much trouble with EVs.
maw
If gas prices continue to climb (or, remain at current silly levels)... that will definitely push some people towards an EV. Remains to be seen what the numbers are though.
Far too many people can't math. I often hear from people wanting higher MPG to save money (which I get). But they will pay way, way more to get that MPG than they'll save over X years at the higher MPG! There was a guy earlier this week who wanted tall gears for his CDI to save $$$. I asked how many miles he drives per year and posted some maths for him (link). The LRR tires will probably take years to break even on the savings. Friends of ours were poo-pooing a vehicle because of "poor" MPG (mid-20's, IIRC)... they wanted 30+. But the cost to get the 30+mpg car was many thousands of dollars more, to save a few hundred bucks annually, since their annual mileage wasn't that high. They just couldn't understand this and were stuck on, "but 30+mpg saves us money!". Well, maybe, if you drove >50kmi a year - but you don't. As Klink would say, "I've seen it a million times."
Similar story for EV. How many tens of thousands of $$$ in up-front outlay is worth saving hundreds of dollars annually? I'm not crazy about change for the sake of change, but I sure like the EV performance. I just can't find the financial value in it, yet.
Far too many people can't math. I often hear from people wanting higher MPG to save money (which I get). But they will pay way, way more to get that MPG than they'll save over X years at the higher MPG! There was a guy earlier this week who wanted tall gears for his CDI to save $$$. I asked how many miles he drives per year and posted some maths for him (link). The LRR tires will probably take years to break even on the savings. Friends of ours were poo-pooing a vehicle because of "poor" MPG (mid-20's, IIRC)... they wanted 30+. But the cost to get the 30+mpg car was many thousands of dollars more, to save a few hundred bucks annually, since their annual mileage wasn't that high. They just couldn't understand this and were stuck on, "but 30+mpg saves us money!". Well, maybe, if you drove >50kmi a year - but you don't. As Klink would say, "I've seen it a million times."
Similar story for EV. How many tens of thousands of $$$ in up-front outlay is worth saving hundreds of dollars annually? I'm not crazy about change for the sake of change, but I sure like the EV performance. I just can't find the financial value in it, yet.
None of it makes cents! Unless they want you (us peasants) to follow the rules while they don't!Thanks for the opinion piece. The UAW strikes may likely cause the big 3 more and more difficulty in funding their pivot from ICE to EV powered cars …. Ultimately resulting in market share shift to Chinese EV makers and a weakened domestic manufacturing base.
I do not believe that the current presidential administration has thought through its attempts at accelerating the EV shift. Even now, the president, in his public statements, seems to ignore the costs of the EV shift being placed on the automakers while supporting demands for 32 hour work week. Accelerating this shift at the cost of national security and benefiting a global strategic rival is a huge self-own.
Hybrids in this scenario is what really makes sense
Hybrids make a HUGE amount of sense. I wish mfr's would focus on bringing hybrids to the mainstream, i.e. build in high volume across many platforms / product segments. There are fantastic performance applications here as well (think electric motor filling in while a turbo spools, eliminating turbo lag). And hybrids would be a great way to transition Luddites like myself into an EV (eventually). Sadly it seems like hybrids don't fit the narrative/agenda being pushed from the Powers That Be.
I just don't understand the worldwide push to go all-EV seemingly overnight, and leapfrog hybrids. Dumb I am, apparently.
Seems to me, buying a new Tesla Model 3 or Y makes sense IF:
1. you are going to buy a new car in the same price range anyway
2. you have a second car, preferably ICE powered as backup or for long, obscure road trips
In this case, the EV is going to be cheaper and save you money over time with lower fuel expenses and less required maintenance. Plus is WILL be quicker with some great tech, if that matters to you. And I would argue that for most people the tech matters.
Interesting statistics on car ownership in the U.S:
www.forbes.com
1. you are going to buy a new car in the same price range anyway
2. you have a second car, preferably ICE powered as backup or for long, obscure road trips
In this case, the EV is going to be cheaper and save you money over time with lower fuel expenses and less required maintenance. Plus is WILL be quicker with some great tech, if that matters to you. And I would argue that for most people the tech matters.
Interesting statistics on car ownership in the U.S:
Car Ownership Statistics 2023
Americans place a high value on car ownership, a fact made evident by the latest car ownership statistics in the U.S. Between 2017 and 2021, personal and commercial vehicle registrations increased by 3.66%, indicating an upward trend in car ownership.[1] Most U.S. households (91.7%) had at least one
www.forbes.com
EV won't make sense here in Sweden when they raise prices on electricity. When they already set to 26 kr per liter diesel (2,33 dollar) (currency now) and they will also raise the electricity because one of the nuclear plant is down.....I don't know how it is in US but we are getting butthurt now with hyperinflation going on.
$2.33 USD per liter would be about $9 USD per gallon. We're currently paying ~$5/gal for premium, give or take a bit (varies by location).
EDIT: We are around $0.11 per KWH for electricity, plus fees of $20 per meter.
Inflation sucks.
EDIT: We are around $0.11 per KWH for electricity, plus fees of $20 per meter.
Inflation sucks.
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Meanwhile in middle east is much cheaper. for example in Iran it's 0.108$/gal according to this: Gasoline prices around the world, 18-Sep-2023 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com
$6+ per gallon of premium here in my area. And about $0.475 per KWH for electricity.
That's the business model that works. Longish daily commute with charging time at both ends.
Wait, that's TONS of people.
maw
$0.475/kWh is insane, where are you that you're paying that? The US grid is a bit of a mess, I hate FERC.
This is compelling (50+ mi highway range in a PHEV). That said, I'm still skeptical of Phevs - I doubt most users plug them in and the fixed cost/complexity of ICE and HV is huge....I just don't see them ever beating EVs on cost in the long run. I'd also never want to own a non Toyota one out of warranty.
www.caranddriver.com
This is compelling (50+ mi highway range in a PHEV). That said, I'm still skeptical of Phevs - I doubt most users plug them in and the fixed cost/complexity of ICE and HV is huge....I just don't see them ever beating EVs on cost in the long run. I'd also never want to own a non Toyota one out of warranty.
2023 Mercedes-Benz S580e PHEV Sets Record in Our Electric Range Test
Thanks to its sizable 22.7-kWh battery, the plug-in-hybrid S-class went 58 miles in EV mode—14 more than any other PHEV we've tested on our 75-mph real-world route.
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Southern California, north San Diego county. It's expensive here...$0.475 is the average cost. Thankfully, I installed solar panels 7 years ago so I'm mostly insulated from that cost. To me, daily driver type hybrids are just plain boring but more importantly, too complicated to be a long term solution. You have all the maintenance of an ICE car plus the prospect of decaying batteries over time.
I hear the arguments that we are pushing EV's too quickly and while there is merit, the thing is that humans get comfortable with what they have and put off changing if they can avoid it. That is to say, without the big push, most people just wouldn't change...and then in 50 or 100 years, when we run out of oil and climate change has crushed us, will wonder why we didn't do something sooner.
Not if the hybrid is a Toyota. I have had three hybrid Toyotas, all purchased new. In 2004 I bought one for $22,000. In 2010 I bought one for $21,000. In 2021 I bought one for $29,000. Across all three, the maintenance costs have been puny puny. Like, 10K oil change intervals (the engine doesn’t run all the time when the car is moving) and the like. Cheeeeeeeeaaaaaapppp to run and perfect blend of unlimited range for road trips (because gasoline) and excellent efficiency (45-55 mpg). Cheeeaaaapppp.
This argument about change before it is too late I understand. I kind of wonder when we are going to figure out that these batteries have some kind of horrible as yet not understood side effects (like cigarettes, heroin, lead in paints, asbestos, etc…) and then decide that the NEXT awesomest-ever technology is the one to go all in for.
I think when my current hybrid is due for replacement in 2031, EVs will be inexpensive enough for me to consider (29K in 2021 dollars with AWD, 350+ mile range, 5 passenger seating, and plenty of bells and whistles for a daily driver where “blandness and reliability” is all that matters).
We currently pay $4.79-$4.89 per gallon for premium at Shell stations in Annapolis.
Just yesterday I was in Philadelphia (drove the E500 the 2+ hour one-way trip, ~250-mile round trip), and gassed up in Norristown, PA at a Shell station. Paid $4.81 a gallon for Super.
Baltimore Gas & Electric (BGE) KwH electricity price I am paying: $0.1467 per KwH, all in.
You guys in California pay a nice premium for that beautiful weather!
I have been an auto enthusiast my whole life, my family recognized this even when I was very young. I have particular tastes in cars, no, not necessarily the most powerful or fastest, they just have to "speak" to me. It's usually a mix of design, style and how it reacts to input. A car has to be engaging.
Admittedly, the newest Prius I have driven was a 2015 or thereabouts model, and it didn't speak to me. I hate how the gas engine cycles on/off, it seems unnatural to me. I assume the newer ones are better but I prefer either a nice naturally aspirated engine with a manual or dual clutch trans or the instant torque of a pure electric.
Only once did I purchased a car because I thought it would be economical. It was a 2014 Mazda 6 GT. Pretty nice car overall with lots of tech and a nice interior but it was short on power and numb to drive. I sold it after 18 months because it was boring and my wife concurred. That was the shortest time I have ever owned a car although I still managed to put 15K miles on it with daily use and a long road trip. Got great gas mileage but that's not enough for me to like a car.
Along with hybrids, another technology I don't like is CVT's. Just feels wrong.
Now, I realize I am not the typical consumer, so my automotive choices may be unique. I get it though, hybrids may be a reasonable bridge to our EV future. Makes the transition easier and a way to stay with something familiar while still moving forward. Do what makes sense to you and works for your situation.
Personally, I will keep my favored ICE cars and add EV's as they speak to me.
I understand your point of view. I have also been an auto enthusiast my entire life. That said I am more jaded than you ---- you care about how your everyday driver "speaks" to you. For me --- and for many others --- I don't care what the everyday driver is like. CVT? Fine. Numb? That's okay. Boring as heck? BRING IT. As long as it is reliable and comfortable and CHEAP (like a disposable widget) then that's fine by me. That explains why hybrid Toyotas are the answer for ssooooooo many people.
Like you, I will keep my favored ICE cars and add EVs (as they eventually become on-par in cost with cheap and numb workaday Toyotas.
)
Jlaa, looking at some numbers, I am a little perplexed:
I have a 1995 S124 that I've owned since 2001. In that time I have put almost 300K miles on it and spent nearly $40K in gas alone. I paid $22.5K for it and have probably another $10K to $12K in maintenance and consumables...so roughly $75K.
In that time, you have had 3 Prius costing $72K plus gas, maintenance and consumables. I don't understand how you are saving money.
I have a 1995 S124 that I've owned since 2001. In that time I have put almost 300K miles on it and spent nearly $40K in gas alone. I paid $22.5K for it and have probably another $10K to $12K in maintenance and consumables...so roughly $75K.
In that time, you have had 3 Prius costing $72K plus gas, maintenance and consumables. I don't understand how you are saving money.
