Engine oil recommendations

[atg]

What base stock is the amazon synthetic? I plan to use it but dont know how often to change. It is made here in indiana or similar by some reputable outfit.

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B07C5FF8RG/

87 300TD om606 compound turbo
94 e420
85 300tdt

 

[gsxr]

What base stock is the amazon synthetic? I plan to use it but dont know how often to change. It is made here in indiana or similar by some reputable outfit.

It's almost certainly a Group III oil. I'd be shocked if it was Group IV/V.

You can almost always determine Group III vs IV/V based on price. I don't know of any oils with only IV/V base stocks (no blends with III mixed in) that are under ~$10/quart. The Amazon oil, like most Mobil-1 oils, are ~$5/qt in the 4-5 quart jugs. I'd plan on changing by the usual 5-7k with normal service.

The opposite is less certain; there may be some fancy boutique oils that are over $10/qt which are either Group III or have a blend of III/IV/V. I can't think of any offhand, but they may be out there.

 

[atg]

It's almost certainly a Group III oil. I'd be shocked if it was Group IV/V.

Thanks. I think this base stock thing is a red herring. They are all mixtures now. It seems to be application specific, and they have grades and certification specs now that didnt even exist before. Eg the diesel oils are now optimized to not clog the dpf rather than for soot suspension, so the latest greatest synthetic diesel oil may not be the best for an older diesel at 10k oci where you want more ash or whatever.

87 300TD om606 compound turbo
94 e420
85 300tdt

 

[gsxr]

Most of the oils pushed today are aimed at fuel economy (lower viscosity) and emissions (reduced additives), neither of which are good for longevity and protection. Y'all have to do your own research and determine what best fits your needs based on both specific engine and usage.

 

[gerryvz]

The opposite is less certain; there may be some fancy boutique oils that are over $10/qt which are either Group III or have a blend of III/IV/V. I can't think of any offhand, but they may be out there.

Brad Penn oil runs $75-90 for a 12-quart case, FYI. I used to be able to get it for $60-70 a case, but it's gone up over $80 in price now. My 560SEC uses about 7.5 quarts with an oil and filter change.

 

[LWB250]

Brad Penn oil runs $75-90 for a 12-quart case, FYI. I used to be able to get it for $60-70 a case, but it's gone up over $80 in price now. My 560SEC uses about 7.5 quarts with an oil and filter change.

Gerry,

If you keep a close eye out and have a regular search set up for it, I've gotten cases of Brad Penn "green" oil on the Island of Large WImmen for under $70/case from Amazon Warehouse. Apparently, if a case is broken open, which seems to occur family regularly, they discount it and sell it as an "open box" or whatever they call it. It doesn't ship in the "original packaging", but all 12 bottles show up in their original and pristine state with seals intact. I've gotten two cases that way in the last year. When I saw the second one I snagged it just on principal, even though I didn't need it at the time...must have been channeling gsxr...



Dan

 

[nocfn]

im out of BP, so I will be looking

 

[gerryvz]

Can I get a link please?

GSXR should order a case as well, for the M117 that's in his near future.

 

[LWB250]

This is the link to the BP, you just have to watch it for the warehouse deals. I use CamelCamelCamel to do the watching for me:

https://camelcamelcamel.com/Brad-Penn-Oil-009-7119-12PK-Synthetic/product/B003TPB3ZY

This is about right, as it was in October when I snagged the last case in a warehouse deal.

Dan

 

[Odessit86]

Howdy.. I read some previous posts and I found this quote
"too frequent of changes can be just as bad as too late"
Can somebody explain to me please why too frequent can be bad ???

 

[gsxr]

Howdy.. I read some previous posts and I found this quote
"too frequent of changes can be just as bad as too late"
Can somebody explain to me please why too frequent can be bad ???

Klink was the one who mentioned this. I can't remember if he ever elaborated as to the reasons. I believe he was referring to people who change at very short mileage intervals, say 500 to 1000 miles, perhaps based on time (it's been 12 months! Oh noes!).

Klink? Where art thou?

 

[gerryvz]

Until recent years, I changed dino oils in my cars (not/never my E500) at intervals of 2,000 miles. More recently I go to 3,000 with my dino-oils.

Never had any ill effect doing this. Changing oil at 500 or 1,000 miles is a complete waste of time and labor -- with one exception. If I had a car that sat for a couple or three years at a time with that kind of mileage being put on it, I'd probably change the oil after that mileage every 2-3 years. But this is more of a "time" and "not being driven" thing, rather than a "mileage on the oil" thing.

The most important thing, is to ALWAYS change the filter when doing the oil.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

The most important thing, is to ALWAYS change the filter when doing the oil.

If anything, the filter should probably be changed more than the oil, if a car is driven very little (assuming pleated-paper cartridge filter designs). The paper elements get brittle and can come apart.

 

[Kyiv]

I had a very slight tap-tap-tap sound once my engine was warm. I noticed it first on Castrol Edge 10w-40. When oil change was due, I put Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 - same noise. I then changed to red line 5w-50 - same noise. I now have Liqui Molly Leichtlauf High Tech 5w-40 and that tap-tap-tap is gone...

I'm very sceptical of "this oil quieted down significantly" statements. An oil is an oil, as long as it meets certain specs. But here I have this observation. How is this possible, really?

I did UOA on Castrol Edge and Pennzoil Euro and both came back perfect. There's no way Liqui Molly knows of some magic ingredient - I think. What could be possible explanations for very light tap-tap-tap sound gone? It's been a thousand or so miles and 30-40 trips since it's gone, so I know it's permanent...

 

[samiam44]

Filters tend to be more effective as debris builds up till the point that restriction begins.

There is a range on viscosities. One 5w30 might be thicker than a competors 5w40. Different additives could have dislodged some varnish.

Paper filters, change every 12 months. Seen filters break apart and distribution engines.

 

[gsxr]

I had a very slight tap-tap-tap sound once my engine was warm. I noticed it first on Castrol Edge 10w-40. When oil change was due, I put Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 - same noise. I then changed to red line 5w-50 - same noise. I now have Liqui Molly Leichtlauf High Tech 5w-40 and that tap-tap-tap is gone...

I'm very sceptical of "this oil quieted down significantly" statements. An oil is an oil, as long as it meets certain specs. But here I have this observation. How is this possible, really

Red Line and other synthetics have cleaning properties, and sometimes it may take thousands of miles for the cleaning to take effect. (This assumes the ticking is caused by something which could be cured by cleaning, and not a mechanical failure.) It's possible one oil is actually making the noise go away, while another oil does not cure the noise. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is to switch back to one of the previous oils at the next change interval, and see if the noise returns.

BTW - I assume the noise was not the tap-tap from a popped plastic oil tube? This can come & go intermittently regardless of oil used.

 

[Kyiv]

This tool is most likely know to all or most of you. If not, it might be interesting. I don't know to what extent it's legit, but the company that provides it is definitely of a proper grade.

Relative Performance Comparison Tool for Passenger Car Specifications - Engine Oil Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation

online.lubrizol.com

My assumption was that just API SN oil and API SN MB229.5 approved oils were practically identical, but this tool seems to point otherwise. Interesting comparison between various manufacturers standards. There is, apparently, a 229.5 (2009), 229.5 (2012) and 229.5 (2016)





If 229.5 is so tough (per this tool) and, for instance, liqui moly 5w40 super leichtlauf that carriers it claims that 25,000 mi OCI is possible, yet costs $35 per 5 quart jug, maybe today's group III oil with a 229.5 approval is better than Red Line 10w40 for very extended OCI @gsxr ?

 

[gerryvz]

Re-opening the oil-can of worms....

 

[LWB250]

Watching...

 

[Kyiv]

Re-opening the oil-can of worms....

Only asking! I don't have a position to defend here, but would love to hear Dave's elaboration

 

[gerryvz]

GITOG / DITOG is the FOA (Forum Oil Authority). There's no doubt he'll have an "elaboration" .... that's the bare minimum.

 

[gsxr]

This tool is most likely know to all or most of you. If not, it might be interesting. I don't know to what extent it's legit, but the company that provides it is definitely of a proper grade.

If 229.5 is so tough (per this tool) and, for instance, liqui moly 5w40 super leichtlauf that carriers it claims that 25,000 mi OCI is possible, yet costs $35 per 5 quart jug, maybe today's group III oil with a 229.5 approval is better than Red Line 10w40 for very extended OCI @gsxr ?

Neat link - thanks for sharing! I still prefer Group IV/V, and ideally you'd find something that is both Group IV/V and also carries the formal 229.5 approval... but remember, MB does not require 229.5 for the M119, and I'm not even sure the 229.5 spec sheet existed in 1990. (?? Klink?) I've yet to see any evidence that Group III oils would be superior to IV/V unless there was an unusual exception.

If it makes you feel better, the Red Line 5W-40 is marketed as "suitable for" 229.5 applications. I use this in my M156. The two have similar additive packages, both are 1100 ppm ZDDP, and 2700 calcium, but the 5W-40 has a bit less moly (~400, vs ~600 in the 10W-40) and the 5W-40 has a bit more boron.

5W40 Motor Oil

As specified for Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche and VW applications

www.redlineoil.com

Beating a dead horse further, it's most important to select the proper viscosity and change it at appropriate intervals for the group type and engine usage/service.

Also - any vendor claiming a 15k-25k mile OCI is brave. Personally I wouldn't attempt going beyond ~10k without UOA and gradually increasing the OCI based on the results. If you drive 15-25kmi per year this would be a worthwhile pursuit; however I suspect most E500E owners are putting more like 1500 miles per year on their odos, on average.

 

[Kyiv]

select the proper viscosity and change it at appropriate intervals for the group type and engine usage/service.

Hypothetically, if you had only two options: a 1993 dyno 20w50 or a modern 0w-40 with a 229.5 approval, which once would you put into your m119 for a 3k mi interval, for a climate with an average temperature of 90F?

 

[gsxr]

Damn, that is a tough choice. I'd opt for neither assuming it's for an M119. If temps never get near freezing AND there's no severe service, the dino oil would be ok, with a max OCI of ~3k. But you just don't need oil that thick in the M119 engine.

I'd lean towards the 229.5 oil assuming it's actually on the BEVO spec sheet. Remember, the 229.5 also allows a 5W-40 (and AMG engines require 5W-40, you can't use 0W-40 in the M156). The 5W-40 with 229.5 spec would be my preferred option - why isn't this one of your choices?

Hey, I didn't realize the Red Line "Professional Series" 5W-40 was officially on the 229.5 list! Nifty:

Mercedes-Benz Betriebsstoff-Vorschriften

Die Mercedes-Benz Betriebsstoff-Vorschriften zeigen eine Übersicht der Anforderungen der im Fahrzeug benötigten Betriebsstoffe und der empfohlenen Produkte. Betriebsstoffe sind alle zum Betrieb eines Mercedes-Fahrzeugs / Aggregats erforderlichen Flüssigkeiten bzw. Schmiermittel z.B. Kraftstoff...

bevo.mercedes-benz.com

Note it's a Group III blend and cheaper than their standard Group IV version of the 5W-40. It also is on the thinner side of spec, has worse NOACK / HTHS ratings. It will also have lower ZDDP levels, although that isn't an issue for the M119:

Professional-Series 5W40 EURO Motor Oil

Certified protection for your warranty at a lower cost.

www.redlineoil.com

 

[gerryvz]

You guys put waaaaay too much thought — and angst — into your oil.

Rules of thumb:

1. Use a name brand oil
2. Change your oil at appropriate intervals: Dino = 3K; semi-synthetic = 3-5K; full synthetic = 5-10K (7,500-10k is fine!)
3. If you live in a year round warm climate, you can go with a bit thicker oil, say 20W-50, 15W-40 or 15W-50
4. If you live in a climate with four seasons, you should use an oil that is a bit thinner: 10W-30 or 10W-40 are great
5. Remember that the M119, M104, M117 and M103 engines were designed 30-40 years ago. In an era when thicker oils with different additive packages were the norm. Trying to apply the latest 2019 oil specs and use 0-50 weight oils in an M119 engine that was introduced almost 30 years ago is like trying to use Windows XP on a modern PC (right @gsxr?) Doesn’t work well because technology has moved on.
6. For the M119, thin oils like 0W-whatever (or 5W-whatever unless you are in super cold climates) are a bit thin. Sure they will work, but they’re really geared toward more modern engines.
7. For the M117 or M103, you MUST use an oil that has higher ZDDP in it. 1200 or higher is good. This is not required for the M119 or M104, but also won’t hurt them.
8. Always change your oil filter when changing oil. Use a name brand filter: MB part, Hengst, Mahle, Mann, etc. no Fram or other crap
9. Don’t fret too much about oil specs and BEVO this or 229.x that. Leave that stuff for DITOG and the oil geeks here. Just change your oil and filter at appropriate intervals, use the correct weight for your climate, use quality oil and filter brands, and enjoy your car.
10. Recycle your oil as appropriate and as your local laws allow. Be responsible.
    
    Don’t overthink this stuff and get your panties in a wad over some esoteric MB spec that changes every year or two.

 

[JC220]

You guys put waaaaay too much thought — and angst — into your oil.

And the EZL plastic film

 

[gerryvz]

Oh most definitely! It’s imperative to wring our every degree of heat transfer efficiency through that mils-thick clear plastic layer !!

A half-degree difference could fry that EZL prematurely.

 

[Jlaa]

I just use Mobil1 15W-50 and change it once a year, which is about 2500 miles.
I normally get it at Walmart for about $22 in 5qt jugs.
Right now it is on sale at Pepboys for $31 for a 5 qt jug, but they also have a $15 rebate per jug (max 2 rebates) good until the end of September.

That ends up being $16 per jug, or $3.20 per quart. That’s cheap. https://pepboys-image-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/promotions/aug_PBA-190901.pdf

 

[Kyiv]

I just have a mild case of cognitive dissonance.

• On one hand DITOG (highly respected, beyond reproach), 10w40 (owner's manual), group IV (makes sense), no manufacturer approvals and $100 for oil (Red Line) per change
• on the other, apparently extra tough, modern 229.5 spec at about $50 for oil per change, but group III and no 10w40 available

While both variants are above adequate, one has got to be at least marginally, but measurably better, I think. Hence, I wanted to hear Dave's (and other's) elaboration, because most of You seem to view 229.5 as extraneous. I'm not losing sleep over this, but I'm damn curious! I'm aware that using dyno with no approvals at proper OCI can make the engine last 300k+ miles

 

[gsxr]

I would have NO issues using a 229.5 spec oil in 5W-40 viscosity for the M119. But I also wouldn't push it beyond ~7500 mile OCI's with normal service (half that for severe service) unless there was UOA data to support longer OCI's.

I'm still allergic to 0W-anything for engines designed in the 1980's where the engineers never intended for an oil that thin to be used; although it may not hurt anything, I prefer something in the viscosity ranges recommended in the owner's manual docs.

Remember that part of the 229.5 spec may be a requirement for reduced ZDDP, which may be why the "normal" 5W-40 Red Line is not formally approved, it has too much good stuff in it. I still can't explain why the approved RL 5W-40 is a blend of Group III/IV. Maybe the Red Line tech guys could answer that?

 

[gerryvz]

In addition to The @gsxr's statement about using 0W-anything in an M119 (let alone an M117), I am personally allergic to anyone trying to apply 2019-era specifications to an engine that was designed 35 years ago. The goals are just different now, and more focused on engine efficiency and emissions reduction, and for which today's engines (with their tighter tolerances, and all) are expressly designed for.

Would you use the latest Dexron VI transmission oil in a 722.3? It would probably work, but it's FAR better to use a Dexron-II/III type/spec focused transmission oil than the current-spec stuff.

IMHO it is best to try to use the oils/fluids that are as close as possible to those that the engine/systems were designed to run on, and that were available then, than to try to "retroactively" apply the current stuff to those old engines.

Here is a copy of the oil spec sheet from the time frame (July, 1994 edition) when our cars were new.

Do you see 0W-ANYTHING in that graph? NOPE!

Do you see 5W-ANYTHING in that graph? YEP -- for the widest temperature range applications, but ONLY for those with extremely cold climates. ONLY 5W-** for situations where extremely cold climates exist.

For applications down to 0 degrees Fahrenheit / -20 degrees centigrade, you see 10W-** and 15W-** oils being specified !!!
For applications down to 32 degrees Fahrenheit / 0 degrees centigrade, you see 20W-** oils being specified !!!!

Remember that now, with global warming, it's rare to even get below 32F / 0C anymore. So that means that even 5W-** oils are really not even needed anymore.

As I said before, 10W-30, 10W-40, or even 15W-40 work excellently for 95% of all situations.

 

[Kyiv]

Remember that now, with global warming, it's rare to even get below 32F / 0C anymore. So that means that even 5W-** oils are really not even needed anymore.

Gerry, what if a discerning corporate colleague of yours checks into this forum and sees this post, won't you be outted and purged from all photos of corporate get-togethers?

Love your wit!

 

[Kyiv]

Mostly for cheap entertainment purposes: virgin and used oil analysis (5W40 Liqui Moly Luften-mahnahten-ibenfavil-dismisch-uchstischt High Tech). Both originally came out from the same container. I guess my driving in hot and humid NoVA, in suburban traffic qualifies as "severe". Almost no short-tripping and in 99%+ of trips oil reached operating temp (1.2 bar pressure). WOT several times, daily. ZERO oil added, oil level remained the same.

Interesting Observations:
1. Viscosity barely budged from virgin state.
2. TBN dropped from 9.6 to 1.7
3. Flash point dropped from 445F to 385F
4. TAN is 5.6

Questions:
1. Where does Boron and Molybdenum come from? There were almost none in virgin oil
2. Where does copper come from in M119?

Conclusion: group III is good for UP TO 7,500 miles under "severe" schedule, but you all knew this already

 

[gsxr]

The increase in boron and moly MAY have been left over from the previous oil. There is normally at least a half-quart of old oil left in the pan after draining, plus whatever hides in nooks & crannies.

Interesting that TBN dropped so much in a relatively short time span. It does appear that 7.5k would be the reasonable limit for your usage, 10k would be pushing your luck.

What was the last oil used, and was the previous UOA from 2016 the previous oil change? Or was there a change in between?

 

[Kyiv]

@gsxr, before Liqui Moly for which above analysis was done, I've had Red Line 5W50 that I kept for 2 years as the mileage on it was 2000-3000 mi. I wanted to send it for analysis too, but the shop, despite me asking them SEVERAL times, still forgot to fill my sample bottle.

In the UOA sheet, 3,000 mi OCI was on Pennzoil Euro 5W40, and the 5,025 OCI was on Castrol Edge 10W40. I think Castrol was SM at the time (2014), not SN, but not sure.

I think it's of note that Castrol with zero approvals, despite slightly higher starting viscosity sheared more over shorter mileage vs Liqui Moly, which has all these manufacturer approvals, even though both are "full synthetic".

Dave, does TAN 5.6 tell you anything? I've added it for giggles, but now that I google it there is nothing that talks about specific number, only what TAN is in general

 

[Duh_Vinci]

I do use synthetics, and I do change oil in all cars at 5K intervals (or less religiously). We now have 3 cars sharing the same filters and oil requirements (W202 C280, W211 E500 and E350) I really want some simplicity and availability off the shelf if needed, but it is getting harder for me to find 5w40 oils here in the rural area.

Castrol Edge 5W40 however is always on the shelf at the local Wally World, this guy CASTROL EDGE | MOTOR OIL & FLUIDS | Home I've used Castrol in all my Audis in the past (since that was recommended by Audi) with out any issues, but was under impression that it is not approved by Mercedes for some reason. I but on their website say approval 229.3 MB 229.3 - Multigrade service engine oils - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids and continued on at 229.5 MB 229.5 - Multigrade service engine oils - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids

I'm not confused, right? Am I looking at the correct charts? It is the same Castrol Edge SAE 5W-40 U.S. as offered here Castrol EDGE 5W-40 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5 QT - Walmart.com

It's always in stock locally, filters I use are MANN MAN-HU7185X fleece/polyester I buy in bulk... I just want simplicity. Any solid negatives on this Castrol from anybody? I know probably overthinking this whole subject.

Regards,
D

 

[nocfn]

RedLine is not spelled C A S T R O L. Amazon is your friend.

 

[Duh_Vinci]

RedLine is not spelled C A S T R O L. Amazon is your friend.

LOL no, you right, it doesn't... Neither does my E500 = .36 I guess I can stock up next time there is a coupon...

 

[gsxr]

Best deal on Red Line is from either Summit Racing or Jegs, wait for one of their major sales with $25 off a $250 purchase (free shipping), and stock up. And buy gallon jugs to simplify the filling process.

Tip: If you need a filler item to hit the $250, either add a quart bottle or two of oil/ATF, or a bottle of SI-1 injector cleaner (one of the best on the market IMO).

 

[Kyiv]

@Duh_Vinci, you can search Castrol Edge 5W40 on Amazon and read reviews there. There are 1,650 of them with an overall 4.8 out of 5 stars. Just sort them by "most useful". Many are written like poems and are fun to read.

 

[BTR]

@kiev after also recently receiving a Blackstone Labs report, I too am curious about where copper comes from in an M119.

 

[Seangbadee]

I noticed a tapping sound today in my 95 E320 that disappears after the engine warms up over 5 minutes.
The previous owner used Mobil 0W40 synthetic in the car, and I am ready to do the oil change but not sure if I should continue with this low weight oil. Gerry or Dave suggested Redline (I think) but I'm not sure which weight I should use.
I have read on this forum about some users having tapping with 0w40 which disappears when they change to 10w40.
This car will be domiciled in NC with regular visits to Georgia.
The car has 119,000 miles.

 

[gsxr]

In the warm climate of NC and GA, I would use 10W-40... but a 5W-40 would be fine as well.

Although 0W-40 is technically allowed by newer MB standards, back in the early 90's it wasn't (because zero-W-anything may not have existed, lol). If you switch to a thicker oil, I am really curious if there is any change in the tapping sound.

 

[Seangbadee]

I just read your write ups from September (Engine oil recommendations | M119 Engine) .
In the interim I will change to a 5W40 synthetic and see if there is any change in the tapping, which just started 1 week ago.
I've decided to go with the Mobil 10W40, which is readily available .
Would 7 quarts be fine for my engine?

 

[geraniumtr]

Sean: I'm sure Dave & Gerry will point out that an oil change on an M104 engine calls for 7.9 qts. ( with a filter change ). In the case of my 94 E320 with 257K miles I change oil and filter every 3K miles and have always used conventional oil. The local dealer uses Mobil 10W-40 which I'll guess is the only conventional oil they stock. Never had a tapping noise except for maybe 2 seconds on a cold start.

Regards,

Peter Weissman

 

[gsxr]

Sean: I'm sure Dave & Gerry will point out that an oil change on an M104 engine calls for 7.9 qts. ( with a filter change ).

Speaking of which... I vaguely recall that when I owned my M104, filling with spec of 7.9 qts resulted in the oil level at MAX on the dipstick. If you find the same thing, next time fill with 1 quart less. Ideal level is in the middle of the dipstick between MIN/MAX, per factory TSB.

 

[Seangbadee]

Since the previous owner was using synthetic oil, should I continue with synthetic oil or move to conventional oil?

 

[gsxr]

Since the previous owner was using synthetic oil, should I continue with synthetic oil or move to conventional oil?

I'm heavily biased towards synthetic... and if the PO had been using it, there's not much reason to switch back to dino.

 

[kwontumspeed]

There's no issue going to dino from synth. It's going to synth from dino which can create issues/leaks on a car with good mileage - although 119k is low, all things considered.

I've never gotten to the 7.9qts on my M104 for the 14 years and 220k miles I've owned it. 7qts gets me safely above the low mark, just shy of middle. Overfilling is a no-no in these engines.

 

[Seangbadee]

I'm heavily biased towards synthetic... and if the PO had been using it, there's not much reason to switch back to dino.

I'll stick with synthetic. 10W40 is hard to come by, but I'll find some.
I have a few leaks which I will take care of when the weather improves, and then I'll start running RL in my car.
Thank you