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Engine oil recommendations
- Thread starter 550Maranello
- Start date
There is a factory TSB with regard to over-filling (using the original, factory specified capacity) on the M104. The TSB states that you should use less oil than was original spec'd, and the M104 should be filled to the HALF mark between LOW and HIGH on the dipstick -- no higher. It says that HIGH on the dipstick is too much oil in that engine. I'll try to find the TSB.
As far as I remember, having owned two M104s (M104.992) in E320 guise, ~7 quarts is normal for an oil and filter change. My G-wagen (also an M104, but of the 104.996 variant) is excepted because it has a larger oil capacity (by spec/design; also more transmission fluid) due to anticipated "heavy duty" use. I believe my M104 in G-wagen guise is spec'd by MB for 8.5 liters (9 quarts) for oil and filter change.
If your car has been using synthetic oil with no issues, then by all means continue using it. Don't bother converting back to dino. If your engine has been using dino oil, there is no real reason to go to synthetic -- just make sure you change the dino oil and filter every 3-5K.
This may be controversial with some folks, but my experience has been that engines with moderate to high mileage that have used dino oils, that are then converted to a Group IV/V "real" synthetic oil, do suffer some leaks. Lower mileage engines should not.
Personally I have always run "dino" oils in my M104s. Generally I have used a diesel-rated oil (which is also spec'd for gas engines) -- Chevron DELO 400LE, in the 15W-40 weight. This works well for all climates and that weight is noted as appropriate on the factory viscosity charts. The DELO 400 has a lot of detergents in it (as is typical with diesel-rated oils), which helps keep the internals of the engine clean. Check my M104 Top-End Rebuild thread for photos of the top of the engine with the cam cover off -- you will see that it is very clean, even with 200+K on the odometer at the time.
I would NEVER convert my high-mileage (250K) M117 560SEC from dino to synthetic. It would leak like a sieve. I converted my 67K mile E500 from dino to synthetic when I first got it in 2002, and have never had leaks (other than from the front crank seal, but that is not oil-related).
I know for sure you can get RedLine full-synthetic in the 10W-40 weight. It would be my recommendation to use that oil. You can get it from Amazon, or online speed shops like JEGS.
Cheers,
Gerry
As far as I remember, having owned two M104s (M104.992) in E320 guise, ~7 quarts is normal for an oil and filter change. My G-wagen (also an M104, but of the 104.996 variant) is excepted because it has a larger oil capacity (by spec/design; also more transmission fluid) due to anticipated "heavy duty" use. I believe my M104 in G-wagen guise is spec'd by MB for 8.5 liters (9 quarts) for oil and filter change.
If your car has been using synthetic oil with no issues, then by all means continue using it. Don't bother converting back to dino. If your engine has been using dino oil, there is no real reason to go to synthetic -- just make sure you change the dino oil and filter every 3-5K.
This may be controversial with some folks, but my experience has been that engines with moderate to high mileage that have used dino oils, that are then converted to a Group IV/V "real" synthetic oil, do suffer some leaks. Lower mileage engines should not.
Personally I have always run "dino" oils in my M104s. Generally I have used a diesel-rated oil (which is also spec'd for gas engines) -- Chevron DELO 400LE, in the 15W-40 weight. This works well for all climates and that weight is noted as appropriate on the factory viscosity charts. The DELO 400 has a lot of detergents in it (as is typical with diesel-rated oils), which helps keep the internals of the engine clean. Check my M104 Top-End Rebuild thread for photos of the top of the engine with the cam cover off -- you will see that it is very clean, even with 200+K on the odometer at the time.
I would NEVER convert my high-mileage (250K) M117 560SEC from dino to synthetic. It would leak like a sieve. I converted my 67K mile E500 from dino to synthetic when I first got it in 2002, and have never had leaks (other than from the front crank seal, but that is not oil-related).
I know for sure you can get RedLine full-synthetic in the 10W-40 weight. It would be my recommendation to use that oil. You can get it from Amazon, or online speed shops like JEGS.
Cheers,
Gerry
Also, from what I remember, there is a two-quart difference between the red HIGH and LOW gradients on the dip-stick.
If the car is in cold weather and/or has not been driven for a few days, or a week-plus, a second or two of taps upon startup is pretty much normal for an M104 and will not cause it undue harm. As long as it quickly goes away, things are fine. I have seen/experienced this, on an intermittent basis, with all of my M104s, regardless of mileage.
For a climate like Atlanta, anything like a 10W-40 is perfect for year-round use. I prefer slightly heavier, at 15W-40. When I lived in Texas I used 20W-50 for my 560SEC -- the M117 LOVES thicker oils. Here in Maryland, especially in the winter, I think a 10W-40 oil makes more sense and I may well go to that viscosity year around (or 15W-40, perhaps). Either is fine by the MB spec sheet for startups at ambient temps that go to below freezing. MB spec'd 20W-50 oils only DOWN TO freezing (0C / 32F), but not below it. The lighter oils were spec'd below freezing ambients.
My guidelines for oil change intervals:
If the car is in cold weather and/or has not been driven for a few days, or a week-plus, a second or two of taps upon startup is pretty much normal for an M104 and will not cause it undue harm. As long as it quickly goes away, things are fine. I have seen/experienced this, on an intermittent basis, with all of my M104s, regardless of mileage.
For a climate like Atlanta, anything like a 10W-40 is perfect for year-round use. I prefer slightly heavier, at 15W-40. When I lived in Texas I used 20W-50 for my 560SEC -- the M117 LOVES thicker oils. Here in Maryland, especially in the winter, I think a 10W-40 oil makes more sense and I may well go to that viscosity year around (or 15W-40, perhaps). Either is fine by the MB spec sheet for startups at ambient temps that go to below freezing. MB spec'd 20W-50 oils only DOWN TO freezing (0C / 32F), but not below it. The lighter oils were spec'd below freezing ambients.
My guidelines for oil change intervals:
- Pure "dino" oils: every 3K miles
- "Dino" / synthetic blend (Group III) oils: every 3-5K miles
- "Pure" synthetic (Group IV/V) oils: every 5-7.5K miles (can go up to 10K)
Just to stir the pot... IMO if an engine sprouts oil leaks if switching from dino to synthetic, those leaking seals were overdue for replacement anyway. Best case, you are buying some extra time before seal replacement. Seals do not last forever with dino, neither do all synthetic formulas cause old seals to leak. YMMV, etc etc.
Note that diesel oil formulation has changed significantly in the past 10 years due to particular filters and other emission-related mandates. Many diesel oils now have low ZDDP levels - not a problem for M104/M119, but bad for M117.
The M117 is a whole separate discussion IMO as it has some rather particular needs for oil specs.
Note that diesel oil formulation has changed significantly in the past 10 years due to particular filters and other emission-related mandates. Many diesel oils now have low ZDDP levels - not a problem for M104/M119, but bad for M117.
The M117 is a whole separate discussion IMO as it has some rather particular needs for oil specs.
In my climate (Tampa, FL) when I've encountered lifter noise on a gas engine using 0W-40 Mobil 1 I change up to 15W-50. It's a bit of a jump, but when ambients are in the 90s and you're at full load in heavy stop and go traffic I've seen idle pressures drop below one bar with 0W-40. If I have the opportunity to change oil on a seasonal basis I switch between the two. That's on an M119 but I would do the same on an M103/4.
Dan
Dan
FWIW I use Chevron Supreme 10/40 from Costco for my 1995 E320 with a 3.2L M104. Currently at 233k and got the car at 269k and doing oil changes at 2,500 miles sine it it cheap and I like clean oil. Car has been converted to manual and I drive the car aggressively with no issues. I will be swapping in a 3.6L M104 later this year and I will probably swiotch over to Mobil 1 15/50 and increase oil change intervals to 5k miles.
Jeff
Jeff
This tapping noise - more info plz!
- It started a week ago - was the car laid up for any amount of time before this started?
- You say it has to warm up before the noise disappears is this correct? What temp does it go away?
- What is the oil pressure on your dashboard when the motor is fully warmed up and idling in Drive gear?
- Following from point 3 are you aware at all if the oil pressure sender unit on the engine has been renewed in the past couple years? (They can give false readings when they age)
- How long since the last oil change?
- How many miles roughly a year do you do? How often each week do you drive the car?
- How many miles are on the car?
Very slight tapping. The car has been on 4 stands but i warm it up every day.
Tapping disappears within 5 minutes of warm up
No oil change since I purchased it in August.
No clue when the last oil change was.
The car had not been driven until 1 week ago
Oil pressure very good
119,000 miles
Oil currently in the car is 0W40
I'm changing to 10W40 synthetic.
I'll see if the tapping persists.
Thanks
Tapping disappears within 5 minutes of warm up
No oil change since I purchased it in August.
No clue when the last oil change was.
The car had not been driven until 1 week ago
Oil pressure very good
119,000 miles
Oil currently in the car is 0W40
I'm changing to 10W40 synthetic.
I'll see if the tapping persists.
Thanks
Ok based on this you sir have a sticking valve lifter. M104s do that especially when sitting for prolonged periods without driving them for a good few miles.
Starting them up in a garage almost does more harm than good. Repeated cold start ups and not properly driving it can lead to alot of moisture in the crankcase too. Pop the oil cap and take a look - any white smoo under the cap?
I think Thicker oil may not actually address the root cause of the sticking lifter. IMO the best thing to do is try and get the car out for a proper minimum 100 miles drive at highway speeds and I bet you the problem tapping noise will be gone.
As soon as I change the oil I will be travelling 333 miles to NC and I hope that will help resolve the issue.
Do I need to check it before I travel such a long distance?. I would hate to damage anything
Thanks again
Given the circumstances I do suspect its valve lifter noise- you can post a video of it or look up Mercedes valve lifter noise videos on you tube to satisfy yourself it sounds similar to your issue.
If so, no a noisy valve lifter will not cause harm to the engine in the immediate. You also said the noise goes away when warmed up anyway so there you go. I bet the noise will be completely gone after it gets a proper drive and I do not think a thicker oil change is going to assist much - the car needs a good long drive IMO.
FWIW I use fully synthetic 5w 40 in my w124s
Thanks a million
I'll post an update once I change the oil.
Happy New Year
I'll post an update once I change the oil.
Happy New Year
DELO 400E 15W40 sounds interesting, and I might look into this.
What would you say are (were) the benefits of using this over "regular" oil?
+1... a lot of people don't know this. Starting and engine and not driving the car, just letting the engine coolant slowly reach operating temp, is not good. Everything else remains cold (engine oil, ATF, gear oil, etc). There's no issue at all with letting an engine sit for months (or years!) between starts, if preventive measures have been taken... main concern is adding fuel stabilizer if it will be 6+ months, especially with ethanol blends. Sounds like you have the car back on the road now and this won't be an issue in the future though.
The "advantage" of dino oil - any kind, diesel or otherwise - is that you get to change your oil a lot more often. Personally, I would rather pay 3x the price for top synthetic and change the oil 3x less frequently, but that's just me. The cost ends up pretty close either way, depending what particular oil you use and how often it is changed. You need to figure out how many Saturdays per year you want to spend changing oil instead of doing, well, anything else.
Great information
Thanks
Thanks
I just found this in NAPA.
Thoughts?
Attachments
Delo 400 5w-40 synthetic, anybody using it?
Just found this article on the oil
Attachments
That's not a true synthetic -- that's a Group III (highly refined/blended dino) oil that is called "synthetic" for marketing purposes. Group III oils are NOT synthetic. ONLY Group IV/V oils, like RedLine and Amsoil, are true synthetics.
The real "dino" DELO 400LE comes in a blue container. That's the one I use. I buy it in 5-gallon buckets at Tractor Supply. The buckets, once empty, are excellent for holding used oil until you dispose of it.
EDIT: Just read the posted article. Pretty much said the EXACT same things I mentioned directly above in this post.
In my opinion, anyone who goes 10K miles on a "conventional dino" or a Group III dino oil ought to have their head examined.
Absolutely correct! After reading the article I was convinced it was a marketing gimmick.
I was disappointed at NAPA because they sell 400SDE as the 'new' 400LE
I will just settle for Castrol or Mobil 1.
Thank you
I was disappointed at NAPA because they sell 400SDE as the 'new' 400LE
I will just settle for Castrol or Mobil 1.
Thank you
Be careful to note the date when reading posts/articles that mention a particular brand/model of oil is true synthetic or not. Many oil mfr's change their formulas over time while keeping the name the same. Depending on the date someone posted, you may be getting old/incorrect information. One example is Mobil-1, which had always been a true Group IV/V synthetic through the 1990's and early 2000's, then quietly changed to Group III in the mid-2000's while keeping the price the same. (M-1 now has almost all of their product as Group III, and only a handful of specific M-1 products are Group IV/V.)
Also, Amsoil sells both Group IV/V products *and* Group III. Many mfr's go to great lengths to avoid admitting what "group" their oil is. In general, the main way to tell is by price. Group III synthetics tend to be roughly $5-$7 per quart. Group IV/V synthetics tend to be around $10-$12 per quart. There are exceptions of course, but this will give you a good idea what's in the bottle.
Why do you care? Mostly because a Group III synthetic offers nearly all the benefits of Group IV/V, *except* extended drain intervals. In general a Group III synthetic should be changed as if it were dino (usually 3-5kmi, depending on standard or severe service). With light duty you might be able to push a Group III to 5-7k or so. Group IV/V oils are usually more tolerant of extended drain intervals, around 7-10kmi, sometimes 10-20kmi with light duty and with oil analysis + TBN to back up the longer interval. Unless you drive 10-20kmi per year, this really isn't a concern.
Summary - for the M104/M119, the important thing is to use xW-40 or xW-50 viscosity, and change it at an interval appropriate for the oil type *and* service type (light, normal, severe). Don't get too hung up on which is "best".
Also, Amsoil sells both Group IV/V products *and* Group III. Many mfr's go to great lengths to avoid admitting what "group" their oil is. In general, the main way to tell is by price. Group III synthetics tend to be roughly $5-$7 per quart. Group IV/V synthetics tend to be around $10-$12 per quart. There are exceptions of course, but this will give you a good idea what's in the bottle.
Why do you care? Mostly because a Group III synthetic offers nearly all the benefits of Group IV/V, *except* extended drain intervals. In general a Group III synthetic should be changed as if it were dino (usually 3-5kmi, depending on standard or severe service). With light duty you might be able to push a Group III to 5-7k or so. Group IV/V oils are usually more tolerant of extended drain intervals, around 7-10kmi, sometimes 10-20kmi with light duty and with oil analysis + TBN to back up the longer interval. Unless you drive 10-20kmi per year, this really isn't a concern.
Summary - for the M104/M119, the important thing is to use xW-40 or xW-50 viscosity, and change it at an interval appropriate for the oil type *and* service type (light, normal, severe). Don't get too hung up on which is "best".
I've made up my mind to get Mobil 1, 10W40.
It's fascinating the variety oils out there, but more interesting is knowing the right type for the way you use and service your vehicle.
Thank you
It's fascinating the variety oils out there, but more interesting is knowing the right type for the way you use and service your vehicle.
Thank you
Any "brand name" oil of the appropriate weight and type will do, changed at the appropriate interval, really.
It's always amazed me how people over-think oils (and car fluids in general). Even on this relatively tame forum, this topic never ceases to deliver.
I just recently put a cap on a transmission fluid thread here, because the thread triggered the forum's blowout-preventer. The oil and gas industry guys here will know that terminology.
It's always amazed me how people over-think oils (and car fluids in general). Even on this relatively tame forum, this topic never ceases to deliver.
I just recently put a cap on a transmission fluid thread here, because the thread triggered the forum's blowout-preventer. The oil and gas industry guys here will know that terminology.
I can tell.
I'm going to keep doing what I do, drive carefully, service regularly and enjoy doing both.
Thanks
I'm going to keep doing what I do, drive carefully, service regularly and enjoy doing both.
Thanks
What? You drove the car so fast that you went back in time from 269K to 233K?
Anyways - Mobil 1 15w-50 Group III synthetic changed every 3K miles (once a year) is good in my book. If you shop right, it is dirt cheap.
I buy mine from wallyworld every fall when mobil does its yearly rebate promotion thing. Around September, every year, wallyworld sells M1 15w-50 for $22.88 in 5 qt jugs. At the same time, M1 runs a $12 rebate for every jug. That ends up being $2.18 / quart. Throw in free shipping from Walmart (gotta compete with Amzn Prime, donchaknow) and the deal is unbeatable. An air-cooled 911 and an M119 drink about TWENTY-ONE quarts, combined, every oil change!
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The answer to most questions is found in the Godfather.
Having developed, written and tested procedures for long term storage of both gas and diesel industrial engines, I would concur with gxsr's comments about *not* starting a stored car on a regular basis. You're far better off just setting it up for long term storage and leaving it alone. We used to refer to this as "pickling".
A "pickled" car can sit unmolested for a long, long time if the job was done properly. It's not difficult to do nor does it require any exotic chemicals or processes. It's more a matter of making sure things that are unstable (fuel) are stabilized and parts exposed to the elements or with openings where things might get in are secured.
Dan
A "pickled" car can sit unmolested for a long, long time if the job was done properly. It's not difficult to do nor does it require any exotic chemicals or processes. It's more a matter of making sure things that are unstable (fuel) are stabilized and parts exposed to the elements or with openings where things might get in are secured.
Dan
Just a quick update here. I finally changed my engine oil from 0w 40 to 5w 40 synthetic, and the tapping sound is gone.
Thank you everyone
Thank you everyone
Very interesting. Puts a dent in the argument from folks who swear that 0W-xx is the best thing since sliced bread...
I must agree with you completely.
Good idea -- DONE.
Thanks for your guidance
Just changed the oil in my 1995 e320 over the weekend. 7 quarts of chevron oil from Costco and the dipstick shows the oil level between the two red sections.
Just where it should be!
My secret sauces
M100 , M117 and engines from that era = 20W50 or 15W40 diesel oil both dyno oils
M119 = 15W50 (it does not like 10W40) Synthetic
M112 and M113 = 0W40 or 5W40 Synthetic
Walmart has great deals on 5 quart jugs of Mobil oil which are about $23 when on sale. Costco has a sale on rotella right now. 3 x 1 gallon jugs for $29.99
You're welcome!
M100 , M117 and engines from that era = 20W50 or 15W40 diesel oil both dyno oils
M119 = 15W50 (it does not like 10W40) Synthetic
M112 and M113 = 0W40 or 5W40 Synthetic
Walmart has great deals on 5 quart jugs of Mobil oil which are about $23 when on sale. Costco has a sale on rotella right now. 3 x 1 gallon jugs for $29.99
You're welcome!
Hot or cold? What ambient temperature (about)? What sort of driving? (asked in a relaxed, polite manner
)
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I run it all year around in Texas so anywhere from 20's to 110 degree F. Mixed driving
I'm just trying to comprehend this subject overall. Can't get over: how the hell does the engine, objectively, know when cold, but not too col (as in 0F) whether it has 0W, 5W, or 10 or 15W oil in it? All of them are "too" thick... Any thoughts? I guess, I can sense when it's too hot there may be a difference between 40W and 50W, even then.... unless extreme conditions (120F, mountain driving uphill)
The engine won't know, you would. In my mind, it only matters when it's REALLY cold like parts of the northern US, Canada or Northern Europe. Growing up in London , when our cars were new, everyone was using 20W50. One winter , it got really cold in Texas (single digits). I do remember running a 6.9 which had 20W50. On start up, I heard the tap tap tap from the cams, as the oil was so thick, it was not making it through the oilers.
My house is on a hill and the drive around the back was impossible to access for all the ice. It was the only car parked in front of the house at the time and I had to get supplies. I let it idle for 15 minutes and warm up before I drove it.
My house is on a hill and the drive around the back was impossible to access for all the ice. It was the only car parked in front of the house at the time and I had to get supplies. I let it idle for 15 minutes and warm up before I drove it.
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I don't know the
Dunno why your M119 doesn't like 10W-40 synthetic, but all of mine (6-8 different motors) are happy with it, either Red Line or Mobil-1.
Temperature affects viscosity and flow. Using the "wrong" viscosity can result in either poor lubrication at a cold start, or funny noises when fully hot. Mercedes published recommended viscosity ranges for certain temperature ranges in the owner's manual 'service products' insert. Just follow that and you'll be fine.
The M110 (which is the predecessor to the M103), also has a need for higher levels of ZDDP, just as the 103 and the 117 do.
While it is correct that Diesel oils have had higher levels of ZDDP than many gas oils, and these have been (significantly) reduced during recent oil standards phase-in cycles, from what I see, Diesel oils still have somewhat more ZDDP than the equivalent gas oils do. And yes, while the M104 does not really need high levels of ZDDP, I also have bought Diesel-rated oils for the higher levels of detergents they contain, which helps keep the inside of the engine (top-end) clean.
I have used a variety of weights of RedLine in my E500, including 5W-40, 10W-40 and 15W-50 (and I think perhaps even Mobil 1 "Euro" formula 5W-50 back in the very early days). I've been very happy with the 15W-50 RedLine for the M119, and intend to keep using it.
I will probably go down from 20W-50 to 10W-40 or 15W-40 Brad Penn "dino" oil for my M117, because of the cooler climate here in Maryland. A 20W-50 is just a tad thick for year-round use here in Maryland, and MB oil ratings are totally good with 15W-40 even below freezing.
It's very hard to beat RedLine if you are using a "pure" synthetic oil.
While it is correct that Diesel oils have had higher levels of ZDDP than many gas oils, and these have been (significantly) reduced during recent oil standards phase-in cycles, from what I see, Diesel oils still have somewhat more ZDDP than the equivalent gas oils do. And yes, while the M104 does not really need high levels of ZDDP, I also have bought Diesel-rated oils for the higher levels of detergents they contain, which helps keep the inside of the engine (top-end) clean.
I have used a variety of weights of RedLine in my E500, including 5W-40, 10W-40 and 15W-50 (and I think perhaps even Mobil 1 "Euro" formula 5W-50 back in the very early days). I've been very happy with the 15W-50 RedLine for the M119, and intend to keep using it.
I will probably go down from 20W-50 to 10W-40 or 15W-40 Brad Penn "dino" oil for my M117, because of the cooler climate here in Maryland. A 20W-50 is just a tad thick for year-round use here in Maryland, and MB oil ratings are totally good with 15W-40 even below freezing.
It's very hard to beat RedLine if you are using a "pure" synthetic oil.
Monitor this closely and see what happens. You may even want to go up to a 10W-40 at your next change, and see how that does.
I believe that 0W-anything in an M119/M104/M120 is just a bit too thin. 5W-* would be the minimum you want to go, so good on you.
For the earlier M103 and M117s, I think even a 5W-* is too thin, and a 10W-* + is in order.
