Engine oil recommendations

[JC220]

Guys - I have an admission to make.

With all this recent debates on engine oils, and armed with this knowledge I decided to change the oil in my 500E today.

I drained it, along with removing the old oil filter to allow that oil to escape and proceeded to my local auto parts store.

I began rifling through the vast array of oils available, dino, Group 3 and over synthetics. Diesel, petrol, 0w-30, 5w40, 10w50 and type approvals etc.

After 40 minutes trying to choose I began to hyper ventilate wildly- I was jibbering about zddp levels and ambient temps when they got my gf on my phone and asked her to come collect me immediately.

She fired up my 500E, hit the road in haste and blew the motor halfway to the clouds. Hence problem solved!! No more oil procrastination for me

 

[gsxr]

While it is correct that Diesel oils have had higher levels of ZDDP than many gas oils, and these have been (significantly) reduced during recent oil standards phase-in cycles, from what I see, Diesel oils still have somewhat more ZDDP than the equivalent gas oils do.

Be careful here. There is a difference between oils marketed as "diesel" which carry only a diesel API rating (i.e., CK-4) and a "diesel" oil which carries both a diesel and gas API rating (i.e., CK-4/SN). In particular, any diesel oil that mentions ESP (Emission System Protection) is almost guaranteed to have low ZDDP levels (700-800 range).

The M117, and possibly some other older engines, really need high levels of ZDDP (1200-1400 preferred, IMO). If not using an oil that is absolutely known for high ZDDP levels (Brad Penn), you must do your homework, or you could be in for a nasty surprise. Don't go crazy though, super high ZDDP levels (say, 1600-2000) can kill the catalytic converters. You usually don't see levels that high unless it's a "racing" oil.

One random example of a diesel oil with low ZDDP: Delo 400 SDE 15W-40, where the spec sheet (click here) indicates CK-4/SN rating, and phosphorus level of 760ppm. The zinc level is not stated, but is usually close to the phosphorus level.

 

[alabbasi]

I don't know the M110 M100, but the M117 has a reputation for requiring high levels of ZDDP or the cams/followers fail.

Different grades of non diesel motor oil will have different levels of ZDDP. 20W50, 10W40 etc typically has adequate levels. 5W20 and it's like will not as it's designed for more modern engines that dont require it and could damage cats.

As far as 15W50 on the M119? I've used it forever and it works.

 

[gerryvz]

You can't "rate" an oil's level of ZDDP by its' weight. There is ZERO correlation on this. It's based 100% on the formulation/chemistry as intended by the refiner, and by the required spec from the API that the oil is meeting.

There are plenty of examples out there of two different weight/viscosity oils from the same manufacturer, having essentially the same spec in terms of ZDDP and other additives.

 

[gsxr]

Different grades of non diesel motor oil will have different levels of ZDDP. 20W50, 10W40 etc typically has adequate levels. 5W20 and it's like will not as it's designed for more modern engines that dont require it and could damage cats.

ZDDP level is not tied to the viscosity. Look up specs on a dozen different oils of the same viscosity rating (say, 10W-40) and some could have much higher or lower ZDDP than average. The ZDDP level is limited by the API rating, if present.

As far as 15W50 on the M119? I've used it forever and it works.

Absolutely, 15W-50 is approved by Mercedes for the M119 and will work fine in warm climates. I've used it myself in the past with no complaints.

 

[Jlaa]

My secret sauces

M119 = 15W50 (it does not like 10W40) Synthetic

Walmart has great deals on 5 quart jugs of Mobil oil which are about $23 when on sale.
You're welcome!

Thank you. This is exactly what I do. Mobil-1 Group III 15W-50 is exactly $22.88 (I just looked it up) per 5 quart jug when I bought it last in late September / 2019. Fall is also when Mobil, every year, does its rebate promotions --- $12 off every 5 quart jug. Every year I stock up --- $22.88 - $12 = 10.88 / 5 quart jug, or $2.18 per quart, with free Walmart delivery to your door. I just received my rebates at the top of Jan / 2020.

 

[alabbasi]

ZDDP level is not tied to the viscosity. Look up specs on a dozen different oils of the same

Oh do I have to?
I've not looked for years but at least when I last looked. 20W50 was considered a classic motor oil and had plenty of ZDDP.

 

[Seangbadee]

You can't "rate" an oil's level of ZDDP by its' weight. There is ZERO correlation on this. It's based 100% on the formulation/chemistry as intended by the refiner, and by the required spec from the API that the oil is meeting.

There are plenty of examples out there of two different weight/viscosity oils from the same manufacturer, having essentially the same spec in terms of ZDDP and other additives.

Absolutely correct!

 

[gerryvz]

Just because an oil is 20W-50 weight, does NOT automatically mean it has tons of ZDDP in it.

On another topic, is anyone here using Mobil 1 "0W-16" (not a typo) motor oil?

Seems like it could be a good upgrade from 0W-15.....

Page not found | ExxonMobil

 

[gsxr]

Oh do I have to?
I've not looked for years but at least when I last looked. 20W50 was considered a classic motor oil and had plenty of ZDDP.

Not necessarily. One example - based on UOA's from a few years ago, Castrol GTX 20W50 has levels around 1000. Too low for an M117. Same for Motul Classic Performance 20W50... and even AMSOIL 15w40 Heavy Duty Diesel (ADP). Fine for M119, but not M117.

 

[Trae]

Still running Redline 15-50 in the M119s and Brad Penn 20-50 in the M117 and M120. Running Rotella 15w-40 in the M104.

If anyone has a better recommendation, let us know.

 

[Kyiv]

Thank you. This is exactly what I do. Mobil-1 Group III 15W-50 is exactly $22.88 (I just looked it up) per 5 quart jug when I bought it last in late September / 2019. Fall is also when Mobil, every year, does its rebate promotions --- $12 off every 5 quart jug. Every year I stock up --- $22.88 - $12 = 10.88 / 5 quart jug, or $2.18 per quart, with free Walmart delivery to your door. I just received my rebates at the top of Jan / 2020.

You! Being proud and parading your frugality!! when it comes to maintaining your cars?!? pffffffffffffff LMAO!!! $2.18 per quart is really good though What office are you practicing running for?

 

[maw1124]

He’s got me over here scouring the Walmart site now, looking like Linus over the keyboard...

maw

 

[Kyiv]

Well, short of interrogating KGB-style (needles under nails, etc) Exxon Mobil's and Shell's chief chemists in the basement of Lubyanka, this must the most insightful read on the most important subject in the world. After reading the full thread last night at 1 am in one gulp (I read BITOG instead of counting elephants), I finally grasped - at quantum level - why DITOG (@gsxr) established RedLine 10W40 as the Holy Grail of oil for an M119

Enjoy:

hths vs kinematic viscosity

I want to preface my question by stating that I would like to learn something as opposed to starting an argument. Lately, I have read a lot of posts that suggest that HTHSV is the primary measurement that should be considered when deciding on a viscosity. I recognize that some will suggest...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[gerryvz]

DITOG can complicate things a bit much when it comes to oil.

Let me ask this question: has ANYONE on this forum ever had a lubrication related problem if they have:

1) Used some sort of Name brand oil
2) changed it at a reasonable interval
3) changed the filter at every oil change
4) used an appropriate weight/viscosity.

Nope, didn’t think so.

 

[alabbasi]

For any who are interested I just bought 2x the following from www.walmart.com

Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 Full Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil, 1 gal (3-pack)
$52.44

It arrived in 2 days and included a GIANT box capable of holding 60 1 gallon jugs and enough packing material to last me a year.

 

[Seangbadee]

Interesting!
How did you get it for $52.44?
I'm curious.

 

[alabbasi]

Interesting!
How did you get it for $52.44?
I'm curious.

That's what they were selling it for , how else?

 

[Seangbadee]

Too funny!
I asked because I followed the link and it shows $61.00

 

[alabbasi]

Ahh, they must have raised the price. Probably because they're shipping in huge boxes

 

[gerryvz]

Interesting!
How did you get it for $52.44?
I'm curious.

Floppers have very special talents at finding killer deals.

 

[Seangbadee]

Floppers have very special talents at finding killer deals.

$30 at NAPA
Ouch!

 

[gerryvz]

Here's what I get for M104s:

Chevron Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 Pail at Tractor Supply Co.

Find Chevron Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 Pail in the Motor Oils category at Tractor Supply Co.Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 with ISOSYN Advanced Technolog

www.tractorsupply.com

And this sometimes, at Wally World:

Robot or human?

As you can see, buying two of the Wally World 2.5-gal jugs is cheaper than one 5-gal bucket. But the buckets are excellent for storing used oil.....

 

[gsxr]

VOA from 2.5 years ago comparing the older version of T6 to the newer... older CJ-4/SM in on the left, newer CK-4 is on the right. Additive package is different to meet the CK-4 standards. It's able to maintain decent amounts of ZDDP by losing the SM/SN gasser rating. Perfectly cromulent oil, nothing spectacular.

Shell Rotella T6 5W40 CJ-4/SM vs CK-4

Just got the results back today. Thought i'd pass on the info. In both images the CJ-4/SM in on the left, while the CK-4 is on the right.

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[mikeym]

Here's what I get for M104s:

Chevron Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 Pail at Tractor Supply Co.

Find Chevron Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 Pail in the Motor Oils category at Tractor Supply Co.Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 with ISOSYN Advanced Technolog

www.tractorsupply.com

And this sometimes, at Wally World:

Robot or human?

As you can see, buying two of the Wally World 2.5-gal jugs is cheaper than one 5-gal bucket. But the buckets are excellent for storing used oil.....

Costco has a coupon this month..i think it brings the price of 3x1Gallon to $30.

 

[gsxr]

Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 Full Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil, 1 gal (3-pack)
$52.44

That works out to $17.48 per gallon, or $4.37 per quart... double what Jlaa managed with his M1 rebate (see post #656 above).

⛓

 

[gerryvz]

Floppers have very special talents at finding killer deals.

Repeating what I said about Floppers finding killer deals .....

 

[Unavita]

Glad to see the latter posts insert Rotella. I too use 15w-40 in all my M117 and M116 engines for the aforementioned reasons. Those engines were designed when certain elements were present in motor oil. Rotella has, to my knowledge, the highest levels of zinc.

As for my 2 M119 engines ( though more complicated as an engine goes by far, they are certainly the wormhole leap in engine tech from the M117/M116) I've only used M1 and OEM weight. HOWEVER, as they age and do want to protect the valves and seats more, something zinc was meant to do.

I use non-oxy gas and have used MMO in the older higher mileage cars (in fuel). I have an M116 I drive more than the other older cars. It has an obvious valve issue. The MMO smooths it out. ALSO, I find MMO aids in the wear of the internals of CIS- as does non-oxy. MAYBE that's for another thread.

Site Hauncho makes a good point- if it ain't broke...!

The ONLY internal engine issue I've had was idling an M119 on the coldest day last winter one February day. A valve keeper shot through the engine ruining (at the least so far) the oil pump. I feel the PO as I'd just purchased that car the previous September may have performed some work incorrectly on the cylinder head. The oil may have been incorrect but that would not cause a keeper to let loose.

As far as deals go I look for oil everywhere I go. It's often on sale.
Rotella is sold at Walmart and FleetFarm. BUT if you keep your eyes open NAPA runs a killer deal with a mail in rebate. Look for when they have it on sale- then as the clerk for the mail-in rebate form! It is in addition to the sale price.
Cheers!

 

[gsxr]

Glad to see the latter posts insert Rotella. I too use 15w-40 in all my M117 and M116 engines for the aforementioned reasons. Those engines were designed when certain elements were present in motor oil. Rotella has, to my knowledge, the highest levels of zinc.

This isn't entirely accurate. Rotella 15W-40 (depending on the version) should have adequate levels of zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) for many engines, but definitely does not have the highest levels. The levels are plenty high for DOHC engines like the M119, but a bit low for what the M117 needs. Remember that excessively high levels can damage catalysts, so you don't want offroad/racing/powersports oils with ~2000ppm. IIRC you kinda want to stay around 1500-1600 max.

Rotella T4 non-synthetic 15W-40 CK-4 has a bit under 1000 P, 1100 Z:
http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_752018.html

Rotella T5 synthetic blend 15W-40 CK-4 *may* have around 1000 of both, for the latest (CK-4) version - I didn't hunt for a VOA:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5083738/re-rotella-t6-15w-40#Post5083738

Rotella T6 synthetic (Group III) 15W-40 CK-4 is around 1000 P, 1100 Z based on an April-2019 VOA (attached, link below):
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5069502/rotella-t6-15w-40#Post5069502


For reference, the PennGrade-1 generally recommended for M117 has levels of 1400 phosphorus, 1500 zinc, according to their datasheet (link).

 

[gerryvz]

I would NOT use Rotella (dino version, which I'm familiar with) on an M116 or M117 engine.

1200-1400 ppm zinc & phosphorus is about optimal for the M117.

 

[gsxr]

I think this was discussed previously, but additive levels change over time, and also as the API ratings change. Rotella may have had much higher levels of ZDDP around 10-15 years ago, but the current bottles available for purchase today do *not* have the same amounts.

 

[gerryvz]

Rotella (the dino variety) and DELO 400 in the 15W-40 viscosity are very very similar and analogous oils. Both have had their levels of ZDDP and other additives reduced over the years, in keeping with the evolving specs for diesel-engine oils. It is very definitely true that today's versions of Rotella and DELO 400 (both dino) have notably diminished amounts of ZDDP from those versions 10-15 years ago. No question. I've tracked it.

 

[maw1124]

He’s got me over here scouring the Walmart site now, looking like Linus over the keyboard...

maw

And on this score... I like to keep some 10/30 around for the Allroad... and today I found (drum roll please) ... Castrol Full Synthetic 10/30 at Walmart in the 5 liter jug for $17.34.

I shouldn't be so happy but I am. Walmart likes to give shit away sometimes, you just have to be looking...



maw

 

[Unavita]

Haunch, GSXR- all this information is great! I have not researched the zinc levels since about 2012. To clarify I have been using T4 since that time. I may switch from Mobil One to more zinc for the M119's. It may have been able to help me NOT loose a valve keeper- one car hope, right?

 

[gerryvz]

No need to use higher zinc oils with the M119. You will not get any benefit. The valvetrain geometry of the M119 and M104 doesn’t require the levels of ZDDP that the M117 and M103 do.

You can get away with any name-brand oil of appropriate weight with an M119.

 

[Gatorblue92]

I think this was discussed previously, but additive levels change over time, and also as the API ratings change. Rotella may have had much higher levels of ZDDP around 10-15 years ago, but the current bottles available for purchase today do *not* have the same amounts.

I've seen similar reports over on the Peach Parts forum about the 15W40 Rotella T Dino oil. I'm still running it in my OM616 in the 240D but it only gets driven at most 1500 miles per year and I do an oil change each spring.

 

[Kyiv]

This awesome thread needs some life breathed into it

I just did an oil change along with new oil level sensor, oil pickup rubber snout, etc. I filled RedLine 5w30 last October, since temperature in NoVA stays below 30C during Oct-April. Because of COVID I only managed to put 4,000 miles before 30C+ temps showed up. Before draining RedLine, I poured about 800 ml of Liqui Moly engine flush, which is the recommend dose for 8 liter sump. RedLine was at operating temp.


Running ahead, I'll say, that thus far, the only regret is that now @gsxr won't extend his hand to me, if we ever meet. Likely he will just cross the street to the opposite side if he'll see me walking his way

After idling 12 minutes, I drained the sump, put plug back on and filled with 8 quarts of cheap oil (did not remove old filter) and again idled for 12 minutes, then drained it. You can see the color of new cheap oil after 12 minutes inside my sump:


After that I dropped the oil pan and replaced oil level sensor, oil pickup snout and screen (old screen was free of any debree), put oil pan back on, replaced filter and filled with 229.1/3 approved oil. Not really sure what I've measurably achieved (or didn't), but it felt good

 

[Kyiv]

Butt Dyno confirmed gain of 3.67 hp and 3.07 lb/ft.

Also, replacing 5w30 with 5w50 gained me about 0.15 bar of the lowest-observed idle oil pressure after an hour in suburban traffic with ambient temperature in high 80s. 1.2 bar vs 1.05

 

[JC220]

 

[lowman]

i see engine flush products...and i cringe

 

[lowman]

Kinda "dislike" that video,because of the misleading "screenshot main picture"..which shows pics of all "good " oils..and the oil in question is the "Dollar General"?

 

[Kyiv]

Do you find this fella funny or something? He makes a strong case for not buying engine oil at Dollar General

 

[lowman]

Do you find this fella funny or something? He makes a strong case for not buying engine oil at Dollar General

Oh..so dollar general is a place where they sell oil.?like...a supermarket kinda place?

 

[Kyiv]

Oh..so dollar general is a place where they sell oil.?like...a supermarket kinda place?

Dollar General is a "supermarket" for de-industrialized areas and inner cities in United States

 

[LWB250]

Dollar General is a "supermarket" for de-industrialized areas and inner cities in United States

Watch this, it will give you an idea of what Dollar general is: Dollar General's business is booming. It's also vulnerable to crime, police say - CNN Video

Dan

 

[gerryvz]

Seems like a good video for the @DITOG:

 

[mikeym]

Finally ventured out to Costco over the weekend after few months.....Saw that they have kirkland signature branded engine oil. Looks like they dropped Chevron Delo and have their own version of 15W-40. Anyone take a closer look?
If I recall, it was $26 or $27 for 3 gallons.

https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-heavy-duty-diesel-15w-40-motor-oil-1-gallon%2c-3-pack.product.100665743.html

 

[Glen]

Based on the label, it's made/distributed by Warren Distribution...the same folks who make the AmazonBasics brand and SuperTech for Walmart. Should be perfectly fine for a daily driver.

 

[gerryvz]

Yep, looks like three different viscosities being offered. All quite thin and not what I would use....






That said, can't beat the price. That's a 2-pack (10 quarts!!) for that price.

 

[mikeym]

Ah, I didn’t catch that. The ones on sale are full synthetic but 15w-40 is not. I will try the 15w40 on the next oil change which might be months away at current rate (less than 100 miles in 4 months).

Yep, looks like three different viscosities being offered. All quite thin and not what I would use....

View attachment 107382

View attachment 107383


That said, can't beat the price. That's a 2-pack (10 quarts!!) for that price.