M119 Brabus 6,3 liter engine. Did it really exist? Plus M119 Brabus 5,0 liter AB 8 - 32 V stage.

[weide1]

IAA 1991. Extra edition. With this on page 162.



But today i found these on FB. Seem to be from an official Brabus brochure.




And since now we're talking Brabus M119. What is this? An AB 8 - 32 V 5 liter stage with nearly just as much power as the AMG and Carlsson SIX liter engines.



Anyhow, anyway. Maybe these engines were never made. Maybe they never found their way into an actual vehicle. But since these data and specifications in, what seem to be, official Brabus brochures exist, it is worth mentioning it.
Perhaps, one can add more information to it.

 

[Rouven036]

Interesting find.
As per the text where is mentioned in the first text: .... further performance increase up to 324kw/442ps is possible through a high torque 6.3 Liter version.

The second picture confirms this version had existed (at least in the brochure)

Thats speculation, but high torque means "long stroke" layout, I. E. the stroke is longer than the bore diameter. By taking the 100mm stroke crank and leaving the bore at the common 6.0 value (100mm) we get exact 6283ccm which would equal 6.3L. However it is a square stroke and not long stroke layout.

The Brabus Kits consisted of a set modified heads with cams etc.

 

[gsxr]

Since the Brabus "6.5" was actually 6,409cc with 101x100mm bore/stroke, it would be plausible that a 6.3L (6,283cc) version could have been produced with 100x100.

It was my understanding that only 13 of the special 100mm crankshafts were produced by Brabus and only 12 of those were used in engines; the 13th was sold separately and purchased by Talbir about 10 years ago, IIRC? Not sure if those numbers are accurate, or urban legend...

Also, a 265kw/360ps (356hp SAE) 5.0L engine could have been produced with hotter camshafts, porting, polishing, and WOT enrichment. The W210 E50 AMG was rated at 342-347hp depending on which magazine article you read, so the Brabus claim is quite reasonable. Shoot, if the E50 engine did not have WOT enrichment from the factory, Brabus could have possibly extracted the additional ~13hp simply with a software change in the ECU on an otherwise stock AMG engine!

 

[Taxi Driver]

Still puzzling, what the tuners back in the day did, remember the Carlsson C62 100x98.8 mm 6207 cc...
also what I have seen on a Brabus 036 here in Sweden 5.3???

 

[captruff]

Since the Brabus "6.5" was actually 6,409cc with 101x100mm bore/stroke, it would be plausible that a 6.3L (6,283cc) version could have been produced with 100x100.

It was my understanding that only 13 of the special 100mm crankshafts were produced by Brabus and only 12 of those were used in engines; the 13th was sold separately and purchased by Talbir about 10 years ago, IIRC? Not sure if those numbers are accurate, or urban legend...

Also, a 265kw/360ps (356hp SAE) 5.0L engine could have been produced with hotter camshafts, porting, polishing, and WOT enrichment. The W210 E50 AMG was rated at 342-347hp depending on which magazine article you read, so the Brabus claim is quite reasonable. Shoot, if the E50 engine did not have WOT enrichment from the factory, Brabus could have possibly extracted the additional ~13hp simply with a software change in the ECU on an otherwise stock AMG engine!

Dave:

The initial order of the steel billet cranks was 12, originally I was also told that they were sourced from Mahle Germany, but later told they were sourced from the UK, probably Cosworth. This is hearsay so the actual numbers could be higher, but since the W210 with the 6.4L M119 failed to hit 200+MPH I was told that this led to the M120 EV12 versions which met their goal of a 4 door capable of 200+ MPH

From those 12 crankshafts, (9) 6.4 engines were initially assembled. I believe you are correct that Talbir purchased one of the remaining three for his 6.4 M119 build, Brabus probably used one on the more recent W124 E65 build, and one is supposed to be on display somewhere. My records show the following for the engines:

1. 1997 W210 Black, my car
2. Silver SLK, Bill Gates car that went back to europe after being in the USA for a few years
3. Black SLK, Tom Cruise
4. Vmax W124 Silver
5. Russia W124 silver/red interior
6. Russia W124 silver/black interior
7. Dubai, Red baron E500 with the 6.4
8. W210 estate, green in Germany
9. Talbir, car unknown
10. Brabus E65, Brabus Classic Collection
11. Crank on display?
12. Unknown

If the above information is incorrect please advise and/or correct. This information is what I have gathered over the years.

Jeff

 

[gsxr]

If the above information is incorrect please advise and/or correct. This information is what I have gathered over the years.

Awesome information Jeff... thanks for sharing!!

 

[Rouven036]

Cool info. Thx for that. I chatted with Bernard and he confirmed that the 100mm crank was utilized in the 6.3 version.
For recent engines the/a crank supplier to brabus is arrow precision...

The red baron came from Kuwait not Dubai

 

[weide1]

No more then 12/13 Brabus 6.5 engines were made? Late 2001 and early 2002 i twice testdrove a W210 Brabus 6.5. One with a private person in Albersloh near Münster, BRD. And the other from a car company in Dinslaken, BRD.
Hard to rememeber but i believe the first to be silver and the second to be black.

I know of two SLK 6.5. The one with the yellow interior


And the one with the blue interior. EZ april or july 1999. The Tom Cruise car?



And then there is this S210 6.5. Ex Michael Schumacher?



Did you include this black S210 6.5 too? https://www.flatout.com.br/mercedes-brabus-e65-uma-superperua-com-motor-de-prototipo-de-le-mans-venda-brasil/

 

[weide1]

Cool info. Thx for that. I chatted with Bernard and he confirmed that the 100mm crank was utilized in the 6.3 version.

This is what Bernard said too. 102 x 100 mm? Would make 6537 ccm.

 

[weide1]

This R129 has a 6.5 too.



These two V140 also.

 

[gsxr]

This is what Bernard said too. 102 x 100 mm? Would make 6537 ccm.

View attachment 70412

I've only heard bad things about the M119 being bored beyond 101mm, due to the cylinder walls getting too thin, and causing reliability / longevity problems. Other than Bernard's statement I've never heard of anyone besides RENNtech building an M119 with 102mm bore. I would also wonder if Brabus built an engine with 102mm bore, or if a customer took their 101mm engine apart and had it bored out to 102mm.

It would have been smarter (IMO) to offset-grind the 100mm crank to 101mm stroke, if possible, although that would open up lots of other problems! The power gains from another 0.1L are so miniscule, I don't understand why anyone would take the risk. 100mm stroke with either 100 or 101 bore would be ideal, IMO.

 

[195910]

List is not too accurate:

2+3: Number of R170 SLK 6.5 produced is 3-4 cars.
5: Russian W124 E500 6.5 Silver/red
6: is a 6.0L not a 6.5.
7: KUWAIT W124 E60 BRABUS 6.5
9: Project never complete nor any progress.
10: Prof.Bauschmann's car is now RUSSIAN as well.

And there are a number of W140 conversion and probably R129

 

[Rouven036]

No we did not talk about anything more than 101mm bore...actually I m considering to go the 6.3L route... I like the idea of the proven reliable 100mm bore while still having meat left in case something goes wrong. Keep in mind that the official AMG repair stage for the 6.0 is 100.5mm. So from that point another 0.25mm radius increases to 101mm should be also still relatively save.

 

[weide1]

And there are a number of W140 conversion and `probably` R129

Car has this interior. Beautiful imho.

 

[doolar]

Haha lol@ 83.468 DM, I get that to around €42.000! Someone had moneys to spend.

 

[195910]

Haha lol@ 83.468 DM, I get that to around €42.000! Someone had moneys to spend.

My brabus invoice is even higher, around 93K DM.

 

[036]

8. W210 estate, green in Germany

http://nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exotenforum/forum_entry.php?id=112817

 

[036]

Haha lol@ 83.468 DM, I get that to around €42.000! Someone had moneys to spend.

Ha...Bodo was asked- did your clients ever complain that your tuned cars take more gas as usual? Bodo- no, never. A lot of them asked for a bigger gas tank

 

[gsxr]

LOL. Anyone who complains about fuel economy of a 6.xL M119 needs to be pointed in the direction of a Prius.

 

[8899]

http://nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exotenforum/forum_entry.php?id=112817

Very cool!

 

[Taxi Driver]

List is not too accurate:

2+3: Number of R170 SLK 6.5 produced is 3-4 cars.
5: Russian W124 E500 6.5 Silver/red
6: is a 6.0L not a 6.5.
7: KUWAIT W124 E60 BRABUS 6.5
9: Project never complete nor any progress.
10: Prof.Bauschmann's car is now RUSSIAN as well.

And there are a number of W140 conversion and probably R129

#10 that the 6.5 Brabus had in the Show room? AND how much was it sold for in the end?

 

[doolar]

Ha...Bodo was asked- did your clients ever complain that your tuned cars take more gas as usual? Bodo- no, never. A lot of them asked for a bigger gas tank

Non-car enthusiast people that ask about my car often ask about the milage, ”Ohh a V8, how much fuel does that cost you??”. They should see my other costs for the car. The fuel is a tiny fragment in comparison, the storage/garage cost alone is way more than I spend on fuel. I’m also happy about the optional 90 l. gas tank.

 

[195910]

#10 that the 6.5 Brabus had in the Show room? AND how much was it sold for in the end?

Yes, the video is on instagram as well. around 300K Euro

 

[Taxi Driver]

Yes, the video is on instagram as well. around 300K Euro

OH MY... that required a big "piggy tank" opposed to my piggy bank, at least I have touched it.

 

[195910]

Fun Fact: Brabus based their ECU on the AMG ECU. LH 6.0L

 

[JC220]

Non-car enthusiast people that ask about my car often ask about the milage, ”Ohh a V8, how much fuel does that cost you??”. They should see my other costs for the car. The fuel is a tiny fragment in comparison, the storage/garage cost alone is way more than I spend on fuel. I’m also happy about the optional 90 l. gas tank.

Premium Fuel here is currently around £1.30 ish a litre - usually around $140 equivalent to fill my 500E from empty. But I call it “Smiles per Gallon” and don’t get too bothered about what Fuel the 500E consumes. For the driving experience the fuel consumption is a bargain in the 500E! My W211 E220CDI - although a decent car feels like a tractor when driving it after getting out of the 500E

Sorry to go off topic - great thread I’m following with interest!

 

[weide1]

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=254439647





This car could well have the AB 8 stage. Since i read 272 kW in the ad. Not that far away from the figures i read here.

 

[weide1]

Owner changed 370 to 320 PS. So no Brabus AB 8 stage. Too bad. Would really have collected images and information of a genuine AB 8 stage.

 

[weide1]

Fake or real?

 

[Lowman]

Fake or real?

View attachment 74216

real

 

[gerryvz]

Why not send the photo of the data plate to Brabus themselves, along with context as to the car it came from, and ask them to verify/confirm?

I'm sure they would.

 

[Lowman]

I'm sure they would.

should be..but im not so sure..Brabus are notorious for almost NOT wanting to deal with anything else than their latest products.
Heard this both from a couple of Brabus owners...and from my parts guy at mercedes(as they carry Brabus in their lineup of parts n cars.He told me alot of so called horror stories about them..which has soured my taste for Brabus stuff at least.
But definetly should send them an email or phone them and give it a try at least.

 

[gerryvz]

Well, perhaps Bernard in Germany also could help....either authenticate, or with a contact at the 'bus.

 

[weide1]

My own experience with Brabus is that they - in the person of Markus Paus - are very cooperative. Only very recent i received an M 112 3.7 K Brabus pdf, M272-4.0 Motordaten and some discussion on the M 113 5.7 K engine.



Concerning this car.



I also contacted the owner of this R 171. https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general/brabus-slk-4-0-spotted/33448

To see if he could confirm the bore and stroke specifications. But he didn't know.

So my experience with Brabus is very good.

 

[weide1]

I only came across this mentioned Brabus M 119 6.1 at coincidence yesterday. Was in my archive some time though. However, i will be a bit patient to ask Brabus again. Like i said, my relation with them is ok. But asking and asking over and over again is not a good idea.

So i will wait at the right moment. Because there is a lot to ask.

Many questions. Also on AMG engines.

Like why have these two a compression ratio of 11,0? By far the most have 10,0. Are these 11,0 versions indicating it to be a 6,3 liter AMG version?

 

[Rouven036]

No. The 11.0 compression ratio identifies ME. 98X engines.

 

[weide1]

I assume 10,0 is LH? And if so, were these LH and ME used at random? Since engine no. 41 has ME. But engine no. 150 has LH.


VIN WDB2100721A478084 from summer 1997 has this stamped engine number. With 10,0 compression ratio.




While ME was already availible, the older LH was still used? Makes no sense imho.

 

[500AMM]

should be..but im not so sure..Brabus are notorious for almost NOT wanting to deal with anything else than their latest products.
Heard this both from a couple of Brabus owners...and from my parts guy at mercedes(as they carry Brabus in their lineup of parts n cars.He told me alot of so called horror stories about them..which has soured my taste for Brabus stuff at least.
But definetly should send them an email or phone them and give it a try at least.

+1 on that Stefan. If anything happens with the Brabus parts & setup on the car, the car either has to go to a Brabus certified shop or shipped to Brabus, Bottrop. Brabus has also emptied their store for all 036/W124 parts years ago.

 

[Rouven036]

I assume 10,0 is LH? And if so, were these LH and ME used at random? Since engine no. 41 has ME. But engine no. 150 has LH.
View attachment 74233

VIN WDB2100721A478084 from summer 1997 has this stamped engine number. With 10,0 compression ratio.

View attachment 74234
View attachment 74235

While ME was already availible, the older LH was still used? Makes no sense imho.

It makes sense.... The ME engine is a new/different animal than the LH engines. That's why the count at the point of implementation of ME was starting again from 0. Let's say a LH was later on converted,it got the corresponding serial number of the LH engine count. So it's AMG 11997 6.0 XXXX or AMG 11998 6.0 XXXX.

 

[gsxr]

I think the last photo above is the puzzler... shows 119.980 (ME injection, 5.0L converted to 6.0) but with 10:1 compression? I forget, were all the factory ME's 10:1 or 11:1 ?

All factory LH 5.0 and 6.0 were 10:1, btw... and I think all aftermarket as well (Brabus, RENNtech, etc). Or at least, I've never seen documentation on an LH version with 11:1 in 5L/6L displacements.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Well well, being one of few visiting Brabus in 2014, w124, 140, 129 is history, not making any cash today BUT I never got
the feeling they "ignored their history" I think it comes down to, if the people who was tech and mech at that time was/are
still around, think it's the same at AMG, and Sindelfingen. The documentation may be obsolete and gone and it has to be
taken from the top of the head and as time passes, who remember correctly, today?

The Q about the 119 980 E11 to me seems to be the case with the closed deck block inhereting the ME's block #?
6.1........I know right now of a '97 E60 block w 1mm overbore JE-pistons they are concave but were they flat topped
I guess near 11 to 1 and 6.1l would be close to reality.

All good will to Brabus or from, in my estimation...

 

[weide1]

VIN WDB2100721A478084 from summer 1997 has this stamped engine number. With 10,0 compression ratio.

View attachment 74234
View attachment 74235

Some extra images. Maybe it helps to solve this ME 980 yet 10:0 compression.

 

[weide1]

And here the other images i have of that Brabus 6.1 liter engine. Is said to have 425 PS.



There is this 6076 cm3 Lorinser engine (101 x 94,8). 285 kW in W140, 289 kW in R129. Maybe that Brabus 6.1 has similar bore and stroke?

 

[weide1]

And i am trying to figure out the exact specs of these two.



And REVANCE is connected to this firm: http://www.ubt-gss.jp/

Even a V12 is around. http://www.gjcars8133.com/vcsMember/stockdetail/828-1_124.html

 

[weide1]

What do you think, is it real or fake? Since i am missing the -1 on min. Real from 1985? Or reprinted recently?



It belongs to this 1985 AMG 500 SEL.



https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...searchId=5492c06d-53ff-b3f4-d460-5c29556ab644

 

[gerryvz]

Looks too fresh and I know those labels have been reproduced.

AMG5.4 or Jono can probably say for sure.

 

[weide1]

Sebastian Nast sent me this interesting article. A Brabus engine version i had previously never heard of.

 

[gsxr]

Sebastian Nast sent me this interesting article. A Brabus engine version i had previously never heard of.

Ich spreche kein Deutsch. Does the article indicate it's a 5.6L M119.960 engine rated at 385ps? If so, that's impressive!!

 

[weide1]

Correct.

 

[195910]

Really nice article, I was wondering why the Monoblock II does not have a manufacturer stamp like the other brabus wheels (which are mostly made by Ronal), it turns out that Brabus manufactured the wheels them selves !

But two years in development!

As for 5.6L, it must have been an entry option on the M119 KE cars.