The $400 400E

[gsxr]

See if you can pinpoint the leak. Head gasket won't be fun, but gives you an excuse to overhaul it on an engine stand prior to installation - replace chain rails, replace all external seals, yadda x3 while swapping the lower oil pans. A cracked head would be extremely unlikely.

Does the engine start & run?

 

[Beater400E]

See if you can pinpoint the leak. Head gasket won't be fun, but gives you an excuse to overhaul it on an engine stand prior to installation - replace chain rails, replace all external seals, yadda x3 while swapping the lower oil pans. A cracked head would be extremely unlikely.

Does the engine start & run?

It does. It starts up and idles smoothly. Has oil pressure. It's extremely loud with no exhaust system to speak of.

 

[Beater400E]

Took the S500 out for a proper test drive. Had to be speedy since it doesn't hold onto coolant for long. Blasted up to 70 MPH no problem. I'm sure it would have gone a lot further but since the speed limit on that road was 40 I figured I should probably back it down. So it seems somewhat healthy. My prior concerns about the transmission were unfounded. The shift linkage is apparently not aligned perfectly to the gate, so you have to shift just slightly past the expected position to shift into any gear. As long as you do that it works great. So I guess I do have a good transmission here.

Just working on getting the year's Gambler 500 car off my lift today and then I'll pull the S500 in and see what's up underneath.

 

[Beater400E]

I got a chance to get under the S500. It's a hideous sight. Coolant is leaking along the whole edge of the driver's side head gasket. It has been leaking for a very long time. Making things much worse, some genius packed a bunch of... bondo and window screen along the edge to try to stop the leak.

It would seem this car might not have always been owned by the most meticulous of crackheads.

So I would assume that at some point this thing was overheated to the point of nuclear meltdown. There's zero question that the heads will have to come off. The only question now is whether I'd be wasting my time pulling and disassembling it.

Has anyone heard of head gasket issues on the M119 that result in leaking coolant externally? Is this common? If it was dramatically overheated, should I suspect any more serious damage? Anything I should be looking out for, or any further tests I should do before I pull it apart?

If the block and heads are usable, what should I plan to do while I'm in there? Obviously all gaskets and seals throughout the motor will be replaced. Do head bolt need to be replaced? Water pump seems like a wise move. I understand the cam oiler tubes should be upgraded if that hasn't been done yet. What about the timing chain, guides, and tensioner? Should I just plan on a full kit, or is that overkill?

Are there any other upgrades to consider while I'm in there? I've been trying to determine if any cam upgrades exist aside from a full custom regrind. Are there any OEM cams that would be an upgrade?

 

[gsxr]

It would seem this car might not have always been owned by the most meticulous of crackheads.

Has anyone heard of head gasket issues on the M119 that result in leaking coolant externally? Is this common? If it was dramatically overheated, should I suspect any more serious damage? Anything I should be looking out for, or any further tests I should do before I pull it apart?

I've seen coolant weeping down the outside of the block, from the head gasket area, generally around the center of the block between the middle cylinders. But not gushing. Clean off the residue and see if the block & head look ok externally. Next step would be pulling the heads and checking if the surfaces are straight so you can re-assemble with new gaskets.

If the block and heads are usable, what should I plan to do while I'm in there? Obviously all gaskets and seals throughout the motor will be replaced. Do head bolt need to be replaced? Water pump seems like a wise move. I understand the cam oiler tubes should be upgraded if that hasn't been done yet. What about the timing chain, guides, and tensioner? Should I just plan on a full kit, or is that overkill?

I think there have been some threads in the past discussing the same question - what to do with a salvage yard engine prior to install. The head bolts can be re-used if they are within spec (not stretched). Water pump can be re-used if there's no damage or leaking. Aluminum oil tubes would be a good idea, swap from your 4.2L engine if it has 'em. Timing chain rarely stretches but it will need all new plastic guides, tensioner would be nice but on a budget I'd skip that too. After new rails are installed, measure chain stretch, if it's less than 3-4° it's fine.

Are there any other upgrades to consider while I'm in there? I've been trying to determine if any cam upgrades exist aside from a full custom regrind. Are there any OEM cams that would be an upgrade?

Only cams I'm aware of are regrinds from Hagmann and Dbilas, and nobody in USA has ever installed them AFAIK... information is really slim, can't find out if you must have new springs (more $$$) or if you can re-use stock springs, etc etc. Based on FSM specs there has been some speculation that 1992 5.0L cams might offer a tiny improvement over 1993-up cams, but I don't know anyone who has tested this (@J-Sauce?).

Check the engine serial number, or better yet the block casting number, to verify if the engine is open-deck or closed-deck. The head gaskets are completely different between those designs.

 

[Beater400E]

Check the engine serial number, or better yet the block casting number, to verify if the engine is open-deck or closed-deck. The head gaskets are completely different between those designs.

119 970 12 038592

So, open deck I believe?

 

[gsxr]

EPC indicates that is likely a closed-deck block, based on the serial number.

The concrete proof would be the part number of the casting, on the driver side of the block, roughly behind the engine mount, and below the block drain plug.

 

[winmutt]

Window screen and bondo is a new one for me! I'll try that app out with my 95 e420 and post some numbers. Atlanta is ~1200ft so that's a big difference but we get humidity and heat to make up for it.

 

[Beater400E]

Window screen and bondo is a new one for me! I'll try that app out with my 95 e420 and post some numbers. Atlanta is ~1200ft so that's a big difference but we get humidity and heat to make up for it.

Yeah, I've never seen anything like it.

I'm fairly certain the catalytic converters on my 400E are plugged, and that's causing my reduced performance. The resonator and muffler have been removed, but it's not really any louder than stock. I don't know why I didn't realize that earlier, but when I heard the S500 roar with no cats I realized that my 400E's cats are corking things up quite a bit. I'll do some tests to confirm at some point, but it explains my issues perfectly.

 

[kegmankipp]

My thoughts are that regardless of milage w124 cats are decaying from time.

When I swapped in new Magnaflo cats I realized mine were partially clogged for 15 years in a no rust car.

Hit up Oreilly’s or Autozone as they are the only distributors for these and grind them for a discount

 

[gsxr]

My thoughts are that regardless of milage w124 cats are decaying from time.

When I swapped in new Magnaflo cats I realized mine were partially clogged for 15 years in a no rust car.

I've only encountered partly blocked cats on one vehicle, and that one was consuming a significant amount of engine oil, which I believe may have been the cause of the catalyst issue. Oddly, it passed emissions tests with flying colors, despite restricting high-RPM power.

On the flip side I have a few cars with ±200kmi and original cats that are flowing fine, no power loss, no emissions issues. I'm still not sure what the may cause the blockage, assuming they are not physically damaged (i.e., getting smacked by a speed bump) or contaminated by either engine oil or excess / unburned fuel.

 

[TerryA]

@gsxr,@Glen,
I believe that Glen’s high miler still has the original CATS at 625K miles. If I’m wrong I’m sure Glen will correct me.

Mercedes OE CATS appear to have a long life expectancy. I would say damaged CATS in most cases come from poorly maintained vehicles burning oil, cheap low octane fuel or physical damage from impacts.

Just my personal opinion.

lol

 

[Glen]

Yes, original cats at 666,xxx miles. My car still burns about a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so, same as when I got it 10 years ago. Emission tests have been consistent and just fine for the same period.

 

[northNH]

FOR SALE - Used 400/500 catalytic converter and crossover pipe | Parts for Sale

From a 92K mile 1992 400E from Connecticut: Cats—everything except some areas of the heat shielding is in very good condition. Pipes, flanges, actual cats are all intact and fully sound(less) with some superficial rust, worst around O2 sensor but pipe and bung without compromise. Heat shielding...

www.500eboard.co

Still available…
I’m confident these cats have a long life ahead.

The Love Of My Life tripped over them last week while rummaging around, fell hard and blames me.
She’s willing to ship, bubblewrapped.

 

[Beater400E]

I figure I'll just build a whole new exhaust system from scratch.

 

[Beater400E]

Well, I stuffed the S500 into storage for now, and started back in on the 400E. The auxiliary fans have never worked in low speed, so I decided to get to the bottom of that this evening. I yanked the resistor out and repaired the upstream wire that was a little crispy. It did not solve the problem. Probed around and eventually determined that I had an open circuit between the fan control relay and the resistor.

I pulled the fuse box and relay box out and traced the wire back from the relay. The wire has a loop that exits the relay box and mounts to the strut tower with a fuse holder. There was no fuse in it. Popped a 15 amp fuse in there and the fans now work.

I did not see any reference to that fuse holder in any of my service literature, or in any forum or web searches. It appears to be the only blade type fuse in the car. I'm guessing this was a dealer installed solution to try to isolate and prevent problems caused by the resistor. Just a guess.

Has anybody seen this before?

 

[gsxr]

That blade-fuse holder is NOT factory.

EDIT: It appears the 15A blade fuse holder was used from the factory on some (all?) 400E/500E models. This is not present on facelift E420/E500 models, and also does not appear in the ETM schematic.

There should only be a 30A strip fuse for the fans ahead of the relays. Schematic below. The 15A fuse you installed should allow the fans to run on low speed (for AC use) but will blow on high speed (when coolant temp exceeds 107C). You should trace the circuit and verify the 30A strip fuse is still in place, and you could delete the external blade fuse holder...

 

[Beater400E]

That blade-fuse holder is NOT factory. There should only be a 30A strip fuse for the fans ahead of the relays. Schematic below. The 15A fuse you installed should allow the fans to run on low speed (for AC use) but will blow on high speed (when coolant temp exceeds 107C). You should trace the circuit and verify the 30A strip fuse is still in place, and you could delete the external blade fuse holder...

View attachment 170848

I agree that it's not factory, but I'm fairly certain it's a Mercedes retrofit part. The car has the strip fuse, and it is providing power. The high speed mode on the fans was already working. My issue was just the low speed didn't work.

This fuse holder is inline in the black/violet wire which feeds power from the relay to the top of the resistor. Pin 1. That's the low speed output of the relay. By placing a 15 amp fuse in line on just the low speed output, we can be sure the fans can run on low speed, but if the amp load ever exceeds 15 amps, that fuse will pop without killing the strip fuse or the high speed capability.

The way the fuse holder was installed was that the output pin socket (1) in the relay box was removed, and a connector was added to that pin socket that added the loop for the fuse holder, then ran through the fuse, then back to the relay box where it had its own pin socket in the connector for the relay. It uses all OE Mercedes parts, including the correct gauge and color of wires, and the correct terminal pins. I'm pretty sure it was a Mercedes retrofit.

 

[gsxr]

The fuse holder (and wiring) does appear to be factory part, but I'd be surprised if it was dealer-installed. I am not aware of any factory retrofit to add a separate/second external fuse for the low-speed fans. Never seen that before, but since it's wired correctly, I'd leave it as-is with a 15A fuse.

EDIT: It appears the 15A blade fuse holder was used from the factory on some (all?) 400E/500E models. This is not present on facelift E420/E500 models, and also does not appear in the ETM schematic.

The 1994-95 V8 models changed from 1 combination fuse to 2 separate fused relays, with the low speed fused at 15A, so your setup is sorta emulating the later design.

@Klink? @jhodg5ck? You know anything about this?

 

[Beater400E]

Aux Fan Fuse - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Can anybody direct me to where the auxiliary fan fuse is located in a 500E. I checked the fuse box and all it indicates is that it is outside the

www.peachparts.com

This post describes another car with the same setup.

 

[Beater400E]

Found the part number for the retrofit fuse assembly.

1244409809

It's number 188 in the attached diagram.

 

[luckymike]

I'll throw this into the mix. Here's my fuse holder. 1995 E420.

 

[Kridre]

I also have this fuse, but mine is 25A. 1993 400E.

 

[gsxr]

I'll throw this into the mix. Here's my fuse holder. 1995 E420.

The one on the passenger side with a 7.5A fuse is for the cellular phone system.

I also have this fuse, but mine is 25A. 1993 400E.

Seems the cars that have this extra fuse holder are all pre-facelift 034's. I wonder if they all had it? My .034's were all facelift, except one...

EDIT: It appears the 15A blade fuse holder was used from the factory on some (all?) 400E/500E models. This is not present on facelift E420/E500 models, and also does not appear in the ETM schematic.

 

[northNH]

‘92 400 leafy parts car with 15A fuse in a newish looking harness:

 

[a777fan]

Listed pn also cross references to the 036 in isppi

 

[gsxr]

Yup, it shows in the EPC for both 034+036 but I've never seen this on any year of 036, and no facelift 034 either.

REALLY weird. @Klink? You out there?

EDIT: It appears the 15A blade fuse holder was used from the factory on some (all?) 400E/500E models. This is not present on facelift E420/E500 models, and also does not appear in the ETM schematic.

 

[Beater400E]

Got some more done on the 400E this weekend. Finally got my 850w S55 AMG fan wired up with the Micro Autonomations PWM controller.

While I was at it I pulled my wiper assembly apart and replaced the linkage and motor with those from my 300E parts car. Cleaned and lubed everything and now the mono wiper works great.

The AMG fan is a beast. It moves a lot of air, but is actually able to keep the car cool running between 25% and 50%, so it's delightfully quiet. I am extremely happy with it.

I think next I'll swap out my fuel pumps and filter, and then have a good look at my catalytic converters before I finally dive in on the interior.

 

[Beater400E]

Well boo. I swapped the fuel pumps and filter, and now the car doesn't want to start. I guess maybe those pumps aren't as good as I thought. So now I get to either reinstall the old ones, or just hemorrhage more money on new pumps and a filter.

 

[gsxr]

Well boo. I swapped the fuel pumps and filter, and now the car doesn't want to start. I guess maybe those pumps aren't as good as I thought. So now I get to either reinstall the old ones, or just hemorrhage more money on new pumps and a filter.

Did you test them prior to install? Just wire up to a battery. Bad ones sound like they are full of gravel (or, they leak continuously while running). Used pumps may drip a small amount until the O-rings swell, then should remain dry, unless the O-rings have really shrunk in which case the leak will be a steady stream. Any visible date code on the pumps?

You can test on the car by shorting out the sockets at the fuel pump relay below the rear seat to force the pumps on, without turning the key. If running and not super noisy, check fuel rail pressure next.

 

[Beater400E]

Yeah, I bench tested them and they seemed to work. I actually had installed them in my 300E and it ran. So I really don't know what's going on.

 

[gsxr]

Got a fuel pressure gauge you can connect to the rail? Could be something else that's a coincidence.

 

[Beater400E]

I do. I'll check.

 

[Beater400E]

10 PSI at the rail.

 

[gsxr]

Well poop. That's not good. 10psi with both pumps running... any chance the FPR at the rail is bad?

 

[Beater400E]

FPR is brand new. The car ran fine when I pulled it in. I just figured these "known good" pumps and filter would be at least as good as the old crusty ones in the 400E, so it would be good to swap them in just to get a little more longevity out of the fuel system. Apparently the originals were better.

 

[Beater400E]

I swapped the old filter back in, and the car ran. After a few minutes, one of the pumps got really noisy and the car quit running. Looks like my old pumps and filter really were better.

 

[Beater400E]

Oh well. I just ordered up a new pair of pumps and a new filter.

 

[Beater400E]

Nothing is ever easy, is it? I installed a new pair of pumps and a new filter, and while I had the car on the lift I decided to replace the O2 sensor.

That bad boy was seized absolutely solid. I did manage to get it out, but the threads did not come with.

I guess maybe that new exhaust system needs to happen now?

 

[TerryA]

Maybe, you can retap the bung OR at least get a new one welded in.

Good Luck

 

[Beater400E]

Maybe, you can retap the bung OR at least get a new one welded in.

Good Luck

I definitely could. The thing is, the rest of the exhaust system us in rough shape anyway, so I'm inclined to just build a new one.

 

[Beater400E]

Well, I removed the catalytic converters from the 400E. They are all broken up inside. I'm sure that was affecting power. Looks like I will be building a new stainless exhaust system for it.

 

[Beater400E]

Parts ordered. I'll be using the stock flanges and the first couple inches of factory stainless tubing, and then stepping up to 2-1/2" for each side, then running into a y pipe with a 3" outlet. Then 3" all the way out the back. High flow 3" cat and a straight through muffler. I'm sure it's overkill, even with the 500 swap, but if I'm going to do it I figure I might as well go all the way.

 

[Beater400E]

Ok, so check this out. This is what I was talking about with FCP Euro. The free shipping option is 14 days. I don't get it. Apparently no one else has been presented with this?

 

[dreaming.haze]

@Beater400E are all the parts you are ordering "in stock" or do they have delivery availability in multiple days after they are sources from Mercedes or other distributors?

I had a free shipping order placed on Sunday. Shipped Monday, got to my house earlier today. It had an estimate of 9 days initially.

 

[Beater400E]

Just one part. Says it will ship in 3 business days.

 

[dreaming.haze]

Normal enough time frame there. Has to be sourced from Mercedes so they add some buffer time. Just because it says 14 days doesn't mean that is the firm time it will arrive.

 

[gsxr]

Yeah - in this case, it's not a part FCP normally stocks in their warehouse. They have to source it from a Mercedes dealership (probably one they partner with for all their OE/Genuine stuff), then ship to you. That's the +3 day initial delay.

Then, I think they are showing a default of 7-10 days for free DonkeyPost delivery. However, this timeframe can vary widely. The order I mentioned previously that arrived in ~3 days initially said 7-10 days, I think - I was expecting it to be over a week. But once it left their warehouse, UPS SurePost packed it on a donkey with rocket boosters.

On a side note, OUCH, the throttle cables really shot up in price!! I bought one last year for $25 from Naperville...

 

[Beater400E]

Yeah. I ended up ordering it from mboemparts.com instead. Added a trunk side trim panel and B pillar lower trim and got free shipping with the 500EPROMO discount code. Too bad the battery cover is NLA. Have yet to find one anywhere at any price.

 

[gsxr]

Yeah. I ended up ordering it from mboemparts.com instead. Added a trunk side trim panel and B pillar lower trim and got free shipping with the 500EPROMO discount code. Too bad the battery cover is NLA. Have yet to find one anywhere at any price.

You mean the formed-fabric battery cover on the .034 trunk? Gotta be one out there somewhere... need to find one in a junkyard, or a 400E being parted out.