The $400 400E

[northNH]

Mine were $300 ~10 years ago…

 

[gsxr]

Well, since I just had surgery I'm not allowed to drive anywhere or lift anything. I guess it's my lucky day because the seller was willing to deliver. $250 delivered to my garage. They're dirty, but not curb rashed or anything. I'll get the garbage tires off and clean them up we'll and see what I really have.

Congrats! With the tires off, next step is to check runout as shown here.

Note these need shorty lug bolts, the originals with decorative caps are NLA and difficult to locate. I believe you need M12 lugs with R12 ball seat and 21mm shank length.

 

[Beater400E]

Congrats! With the tires off, next step is to check runout as shown here.

Note these need shorty lug bolts, the originals with decorative caps are NLA and difficult to locate. I believe you need M12 lugs with R12 ball seat and 21mm shank length.

Thanks. Yeah, I'll definitely take some measurements before I get too crazy with them. It looks like the clearcoat has a few minor issues so I might end up stripping them and giving them a fresh polish and clear.

I also just realized that I already have a good set of tires I can mount on these wheels. So I guess if they're straight they'll end up on the 400, at least for now. Still not 100% certain if it's the look I want long term, but it's better than the nasty crusty 8 holes and snow tires that are on it now.

 

[Beater400E]

Update time.

I never did hear back from Finish Line Wheels about those C36 wheels. They claim to be very responsive, but it's been about a week and I've heard nothing.

I got the old tires dismounted off the CLK wheels and started cleaning them up. Haven't measured them yet, but they appear to be straight. The clear is not in the best condition so I'm trying to decide what to do with them at this point.

@gsxr do you have any local suggestions? Hub Cap Annie is the only one I know.

Back in the day when you could still buy real paint stripper I'd just strip these myself and repolish and clear them. I've tried a couple different modern strippers on them with almost no effect.

I've also started tearing into my junk yard 5 liter engine. So far I'm really pleased with what I'm seeing. The junk yard car was missing its gauge cluster so I have no idea how many miles were on the car. The upper engine harness was original and was ROACHED. I'm thinking that may have been one of the main reasons that car was scrapped. It also had a crusty interior and a really bad respray job, so death by a thousand cuts seems more likely than any issue with the engine.

Pulled the valve covers off. Everything looks super clean up top. I also had pulled the oil filter and inspected and it looks very clean as well.

I'd like to inspect and figure out what needs to be done with the timing chain guides and such. At first glance, everything looks really good, but I don't really know what I'm looking for. I've found lots of discussions on replacing timing chain guides and tensioners, as well as checking for chain stretch. I've also read the FSM literature on replacing all those components. I'm still a little unclear on what the actual inspection procedure would be, and which parts, specifically would be good to replace preventatively.

I'll keep searching through the site and the literature, and I'm sure the answer can be found here somewhere, but if anyone has any guidance or links that would be great.

Also, anything else I should inspect while I'm at it? What other parts should I plan to replace before I toss this engine in the car?

 

[gsxr]

Hub Cap Annie is expensive. And, I'm not sure if they can retain the factory finish with machined face and painted "edges" of the holes. Most likley they would polish the entire face (instead of machining it) and re-clearcoat. Call or drop by their shop to ask for a quote, but I expect they will want $120-$180 for each wheel. If any are bent, that's another $120-$150 per wheel extra. There's a couple shops elsewhere in USA that can reproduce the factory machine finish & clear, but you'll have to ship the wheels to them. The other places may be less expensive.

BTW, if you can get the VIN from the junkyard car, I can try to get an AutoCheck and see if there was any odometer readings reported.

The timing chain & tensioner can be left alone, but I'd replace all the upper plastic chain guide rails... this means pulling the intake cam advance mechanism off the camshaft, so you can access the guides on the inside of the "V", below the intake sprockets. Parts are cheap but it's many hours of labor. Also drop the oil pan to check for plastic rail debris. Don't pull the timing cover unless you have very good reason to... that ain't fun.

Remember you have to swap the main / aluminum oil pan & dipstick tube, and manifolds, to use the 140 engine in a 124 chassis. Swapping the pan won't be fun. Make SURE to replace the front crankshaft seal... this requires torquing the 27mm bolt to 400Nm after the engine is back in the car. Near impossible to torque this out of the car. Also need a lock tool, or some other way to lock the crank...

Oh yeah: All rubber PCV hoses & valve cover gaskets (OE/Genuine only), smog pump hoses may be fossilized, replace the oil level sensor O-ring while the pan is off, make sure the rear main seal is bone dry, re-seal the cam solenoids (which need to come off for the chain rail work). The solenoids should probably be taken apart and re-sealed if you don't want to buy new ones, details here.

 

[Beater400E]

Sweet, that's great info, thanks.

The VIN from the junkyard car is WDBGA51E4SA247410.

 

[gsxr]

I totally forgot: Since you have to remove the aluminum oil pan, you CAN remove the timing cover... normally the issue is that it's sandwiched between the cylinder heads and oil pan, and one or both of those gaskets can get damaged when sliding the cover in & out. But if either heads OR oil pan comes off, it's much easier. Still, there may not be a lot of incentive to pull the timing cover, but it's a lot less of a problem with the oil pan off.

VIN WDBGA51E4SA247410 has almost nothing on AutoCheck... it had 77kmi in 2005 in CA, then zero odometer records since it went to Idaho in 2007. I'm guessing 200kmi is a good ballpark. Perhaps @canyoncarco could pull a Carfax and see if there are any records from repair shops.

 

[Beater400E]

Trying to check for timing chain stretch. Let's make sure I'm doing this right. Turned the motor over clockwise a couple times, then stopped it at 45 degrees. Tried to insert a 6.5mm pin (drill bit) into each cam. Had to turn the motor a bit more to about 43 or 44 degrees, and then had to use a letter B drill (.238 inch, .605mm) to actually get it into the holes in the cams. Looks like these cam holes are 6mm nominal. Anyway, all 4 of them aligned at 43-44 degrees. I'm guessing that means I don't need to worry about a stretched chain.

Should I plan to replace the guides regardless?

 

[gsxr]

Trying to check for timing chain stretch. Let's make sure I'm doing this right. Turned the motor over clockwise a couple times, then stopped it at 45 degrees. Tried to insert a 6.5mm pin (drill bit) into each cam. Had to turn the motor a bit more to about 43 or 44 degrees, and then had to use a letter B drill (.238 inch, .605mm) to actually get it into the holes in the cams. Looks like these cam holes are 6mm nominal. Anyway, all 4 of them aligned at 43-44 degrees. I'm guessing that means I don't need to worry about a stretched chain.

Yup, that's correct... and ~2° off spec of 45° is normal for a used chain. You'll typically only get 45° on all four cams with a new chain and all new rails. With multiple broken rails even a new chain may read 5-10° out of spec.

Should I plan to replace the guides regardless?

Probably. I'd be shocked if they are all intact.

This is a pretty common sight:

 

[Beater400E]

Trying to get a shopping list together for all the parts I'll need for this.

Should I replace the tensioner? Is there any testing I can do to confirm whether mine is good or not? I now have 3 M119 engines that I'm basically going to cannibalize to build one nice 5 liter.

From what I've gathered, I need to swap the upper and lower oil pans, exhaust manifolds, and I'm assuming the entire front accessory drive.

My 4.2 has the aluminum oiler tubes, so I'll use those. I've read that I'll want to use the late cam adjuster springs and oil filter drain back valve. I'm sure the ones on the 95 5 liter will work fine.

I noticed that the crank pulley on all 3 engines appears to be different, and the 400 has a sensor at the pulley that I don't see on the others. Does anyone know which combo of parts I need to run to make all that work?

Any other mixing and matching of parts I should consider?

 

[gsxr]

The tensioner uses oil pressure and is, IMO, a rare failure. I'd re-use the existing ones if you aren't buying new OE/Genuine.

The front crank sensor is for the 11-pin 9-pin diagnostic port (X11) near the ABS/ASR pump and EZL, this was eliminated (cost savings) on facelift models. You don't need it.

I've never been able to figure out if the late balancer, with "holes" in it, can be used on early engines without re-balancing the assembly. The late balancer is a slip-fit with a stretch bolt and no washers. The early balancer is 2-piece with separate, interference-fit hub and a standard bolt with a Bellville washer stack. The early hub is a minor headache to pull off, and must be heated prior to installing. The late balancer/hub assembly slides on and off easily.

 

[Beater400E]

The tensioner uses oil pressure and is, IMO, a rare failure. I'd re-use the existing ones if you aren't buying new OE/Genuine.

The front crank sensor is for the 11-pin diagnostic port near the ABS/ASR pump and EZL, this was eliminated (cost savings) on facelift models. You don't need it.

I've never been able to figure out if the late balancer, with "holes" in it, can be used on early engines without re-balancing the assembly. The late balancer is a slip-fit with a stretch bolt and no washers. The early balancer is 2-piece with separate, interference-fit hub and a standard bolt with a Bellville washer stack. The early hub is a minor headache to pull off, and must be heated prior to installing. The late balancer/hub assembly slides on and off easily.

Great. Sounds like I can just run the 95 setup.

 

[Beater400E]

I decided I'm not going to run the other tires I had that would have fit the CLK wheels. They were just a bit too old for me to be willing to pay for mounting. I sold that set and I'll buy new. I know the typical tire size for this application would be 205/55/16. I believe a 215/55/16 would also fit. Any idea if a 225/50/16 would fit? I'm definitely willing to space the front fenders out a bit if needed. Would it be worth it to do the 225s? I figure if I'm going with the CLK wheels I might as well do everything I can to improve grip to take advantage of the light wheels.

 

[TimL]

I decided I'm not going to run the other tires I had that would have fit the CLK wheels. They were just a bit too old for me to be willing to pay for mounting. I sold that set and I'll buy new. I know the typical tire size for this application would be 205/55/16. I believe a 215/55/16 would also fit. Any idea if a 225/50/16 would fit? I'm definitely willing to space the front fenders out a bit if needed. Would it be worth it to do the 225s? I figure if I'm going with the CLK wheels I might as well do everything I can to improve grip to take advantage of the light wheels.

I think 225 might be a bit too generous for these wheels. I’d just try to go with the grippiest summer tire you can find for whatever size (205, 215, 225) instead of focusing on just width…

 

[gsxr]

The 225/50 is a on the wide side for a 7.0" wheel... you'll have a bit more section width, but might get some sidewall flex in the corners. Pulling up a random sample tire (link) it shows a section width of 9", so the sidewall will stick out an inch on each side of the wheel.

But, for 5.0L power it would be nice to try and get a bigger footprint. Ideally you'd have a wider wheel (7.5 or 8.0) but then you run into fender clearance issues to resolve, and the scope creep begins... Tim has a good point that a stickier compound may help more than raw section width / tread width.

 

[TimL]

i’m really surprised what kind of performance tires you can get for the 205 size!! The two attached are supposedly “it” if looking for grip. I wish they had that for 225/16 for the 036!

Had the predecessor of the Bridgestone on my 18” wheels at some point and they were massively sticky. Seems like you will be all set to put all that newfound 5 Liter power down @Beater400E!

 

[gsxr]

205/55/16 is a SUPER common size... you can find almost anything you want!

225/55/16, not so much anymore. The last "performance" tires in that size vanished 3-5 years ago.

 

[Beater400E]

Yeah, I'm definitely noticing that it's hard to find performance tires in the 225 or 215 sizes. 205s can be found all day long. I'm kind of eyeing these Firestone Indy 500s. This is of course the $400 400E, so trying to keep things cheap. After rebates and such, a set of 4 is $422. My biggest concern with a high performance summer tire is that with the soft compounds I'll just turn them to smoke with the 5 liter and 3.06 gears. That's why I was also wanting to maximize tread width.


I actually went down to Discount Tire this afternoon to order some Dunlop Direzza ZIIs in 225/50/16, but alas, they have none available despite the website claiming they do.

 

[Beater400E]

I guess another option would be something like a 205 in the front and a 225 in the rear. A little weird to do staggered tires and not wheels, but

 

[gsxr]

I guess another option would be something like a 205 in the front and a 225 in the rear. A little weird to do staggered tires and not wheels, but

Nah, keep a square setup so you can rotate front to rear.

 

[Beater400E]

Good news. I finally got around to checking how true my CLK wheels are. They're actually better than I'd hoped. I took 4 measurements in each wheel. 1 each on the inner and outer radial bead surface, and 1 each on the inner and outer lip. All measurements are on the surfaces the tire mounts to.

Wheel 1:
Outer lip: .007"/.178mm
Inner lip: .012"/.305mm
Outer circumference: .007"/.178mm
Inner circumference: .012"/.305mm

Wheel 2:
Outer lip: .015"/.381mm
Inner lip: .020"/.508mm
Outer circumference: .004"/.102mm
Inner circumference: .014"/.356mm

Wheel 3:
Outer lip: .006"/.152mm
Inner lip: .009"/.229mm
Outer circumference: .007"/.178mm
Inner circumference: .008"/.203mm

Wheel 4:
Outer lip: .006"/.152mm
Inner lip: .008"/.203mm
Outer circumference: .003"/.076mm
Inner circumference: .009"/.229mm

I'd say that's well within spec. That's good because I've already started stripping the clear off them all. I'm chemically stripping them, after which I'll make sure they're all perfectly polished, and I'll reclear them. I'm too cheap to pay someone else to do it, so I'm just doing it myself.

POR-15 has a couple nice products that supposedly work really well for clearing polished alloy wheels, so I have my paint supplier ordering those for me.

 

[gsxr]

Nice work! Wheel #2 is nearing the limits of what I'd like to see for runout, but the other three are excellent. I doubt you'll have any issues with #2, but now that you've measured them, make sure to mark each one for future reference. I use a marker to write in the center bore.

 

[Beater400E]

Nice work! Wheel #2 is nearing the limits of what I'd like to see for runout, but the other three are excellent. I doubt you'll have any issues with #2, but now that you've measured them, make sure to mark each one for future reference. I use a marker to write in the center bore.

Thanks. Your write up was really helpful. I appreciate it.

The hardest part was just getting the wheels bolted to the car in the first place. I didn't want to order the short shank bolts until I was sure the wheels were straight, so I yanked 3 lug bolts off my 300E parts car, and shortened them to a 22mm shank. When I measured the wheel flange thicknesses I determined 22mm will be ideal for these wheels. Trouble is, the W124 bolts are only threaded up part of the shank, and the unthreaded section of the shank bottomed in the hub threads before the rim seated against the rotor.

I figured I'd just use a threading die to thread the rest of the shank, but I only had a 12x1.25mm die, not a 12x1.5, so I had to run all over town to find a die. I did eventually get one, after which I threaded the remainder of the bolt shanks and was finally able to bolt the wheels on.

 

[canyoncarco]

I totally forgot: Since you have to remove the aluminum oil pan, you CAN remove the timing cover... normally the issue is that it's sandwiched between the cylinder heads and oil pan, and one or both of those gaskets can get damaged when sliding the cover in & out. But if either heads OR oil pan comes off, it's much easier. Still, there may not be a lot of incentive to pull the timing cover, but it's a lot less of a problem with the oil pan off.

VIN WDBGA51E4SA247410 has almost nothing on AutoCheck... it had 77kmi in 2005 in CA, then zero odometer records since it went to Idaho in 2007. I'm guessing 200kmi is a good ballpark. Perhaps @canyoncarco could pull a Carfax and see if there are any records from repair shops.


View attachment 172739

Carfax attached for reference. Sorry Dave, did not catch your tag earlier in the week.

 

[Beater400E]

Carfax attached for reference. Sorry Dave, did not catch your tag earlier in the week.

Thank you very much for that. I'm sure the mileage discrepancy is due to someone as Oscar's misentering the mileage. Nice to see it went to Oscar's. They know what they're doing. Looks like this engine probably has lower miles than we suspected.

@canyoncarco any chance you have info on the $400 400E itself? WDBEA34EXNB683457

 

[canyoncarco]

Thank you very much for that. I'm sure the mileage discrepancy is due to someone as Oscar's misentering the mileage. Nice to see it went to Oscar's. They know what they're doing. Looks like this engine probably has lower miles than we suspected.

@canyoncarco any chance you have info on the $400 400E itself? WDBEA34EXNB683457

400E Carfax attached.

 

[TerryA]

400E Carfax attached.

@Beater400E,
You must be Owner #10 That’s a lot of history on that carfax.

 

[a777fan]

But super clean tho! Nice for 400 bucks

 

[Beater400E]

400E Carfax attached.

Awesome. Thanks again.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this car got around as much as it did before I got it.

You must be Owner #10 That’s a lot of history on that carfax.

I'm #9 actually. #8 was undoubtedly the title loan company I bought it from.

 

[Beater400E]

I know the consensus was that the 16x7 was too narrow for a 225/50/16, but I decided the give it a shot anyway. Many BMW E36 and E46 sport models came with 16x7 and 225/50/16 from the factory, so I figure it can't be that bad.

I ordered the Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 set from Tire Rack. They just arrived today. I've never run them before, but I've heard lots of good things and the price was great, so I guess we'll see.

I also have a set of H&R springs that need to go in. I imagine I'll need to do a little work to the front fenders to get the tire to fit, but assuming I can work all that out, I think I'll like it.

 

[gsxr]

Cool! It won't be that hard to get clearance for this combo, it's a medium-aggressive fitment. Use the AMG wheel install docs at W124performance to get an idea of how much to roll the fender lips, and what else to massage.

What H&R springs did you get? Are they V8-specific? If not, the front end may be reeeaaaally low. Measure ride height from fender lip to wheel center before you start. Stock is usually mid/upper 14 inches at the front, and upper 14 / low 15 inches in the rear. The rear height varies about a 1/2 inch between full and empty tank. I try to set ride height so the rear is equal to the front with a full tank of fuel. You can use ballast in the trunk to simulate a full tank (~7 lbs per gallon of gas). After changing springs OR spring pads, you have to drive the car a few miles to settle the suspension. You can't lower it off the lift and measure.

I set up my E420 to about 14.25-14.5" all around with a full tank, pics here. Note that as you start going below 14" the front radiator support WILL kiss parking curbs... and get bent inward... then it's very difficult to push back out without distorting other stuff. I wouldn't recommend below ~13.5" for street use, at that point the front struts are either touching the stop buffers, or will be close to them. You can change the stop buffers as well, see pics below.

 

[Beater400E]

I got the H&R 29569-2 springs. There's a lot of info out there about which springs work for which w124 variant. I don't remember all the details now, but I think this set is supposed to work. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Beater400E]

I haven't bought new struts to go with yhr springs just yet. Trying to spread out my expenditures at least a little bit. I imagine I'll go with Bilstein B8s, but if there are any other suggestions I'm all ears.

Finally getting around to selling last year's Gambler 500 winner. Maybe that will bring in some cash for struts...

 

[TimL]

I know the consensus was that the 16x7 was too narrow for a 225/50/16, but I decided the give it a shot anyway. Many BMW E36 and E46 sport models came with 16x7 and 225/50/16 from the factory, so I figure it can't be that bad.

I ordered the Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 set from Tire Rack. They just arrived today. I've never run them before, but I've heard lots of good things and the price was great, so I guess we'll see.

I also have a set of H&R springs that need to go in. I imagine I'll need to do a little work to the front fenders to get the tire to fit, but assuming I can work all that out, I think I'll like it.

Any concerns about the lower sidewall (load rating, etc.)?

 

[Beater400E]

Any concerns about the lower sidewall (load rating, etc.)?

I don't know of any reason to be concerned. You mean because it's a 50 aspect ratio as opposed to a 55?

 

[TimL]

I don't know of any reason to be concerned. You mean because it's a 50 aspect ratio as opposed to a 55?

Exactl. Just wondering if anyone here has thoughts on any potential drawbacks of using this dimension. I’m asking because I’d like to use this size for my 500 E, as the high performance summer tire selection is way bigger in this size. I think I could live with the speedo inaccuracy as it’s not too large. Just wondering about loads, as well as any ABS, ASR issues

 

[Beater400E]

The tire diameter is exactly the same as the 205/55/16, which is why I went with a 50 as opposed to a 55. It should not affect the speedometer accuracy at all. I have no concerns. Pretty standard deal when you go to a larger diameter wheel.

 

[TimL]

The tire diameter is exactly the same as the 205/55/16, which is why I went with a 50 as opposed to a 55. It should not affect the speedometer accuracy at all. I have no concerns. Pretty standard deal when you go to a larger diameter wheel.

I guess my question is geared towards the 500 E where the standard size is 225/55/16. @gsxr what are your thoughts on that?

 

[Beater400E]

 

[kegmankipp]

Exactl. Just wondering if anyone here has thoughts on any potential drawbacks of using this dimension. I’m asking because I’d like to use this size for my 500 E, as the high performance summer tire selection is way bigger in this size. I think I could live with the speedo inaccuracy as it’s not too large. Just wondering about loads, as well as any ABS, ASR issues

You could get the Yellow Box Speedo corrector from Australia for around a $100 and adjust the Speedo any way you want. Took 20 min to install.

And yeah all the thanks to GSXR for the tip

 

[gsxr]

I guess my question is geared towards the 500 E where the standard size is 225/55/16. @gsxr what are your thoughts on that?

The 50 series (vs 55) on an 036 isn't a big deal, but may look a bit odd with the shorter sidewall. Lower ride height will help as it reduces the "gap" between fender and tire. You'd have to try one 50-series to see what you think of the appearance- maybe on the spare wheel? Or pick up a set of 4 and hope you like 'em.

It's about a 3.5% size difference, and the speedo/odo can be easily fixed with a YellowBox as Kegmann mentioned above.

 

[Beater400E]

Well, I sold my silly boat car for way more than I expected, so I guess I have cash in the budget again. I'll be ordering up a set of Bilstein B8s unless anyone suggests a better option. Also looking at brake upgrades. I know late 034 front brakes are an upgrade, and should fit with the CLK wheels. Are there any better options that would fit with those wheels? What about rears? Also, I have the master cylinder and booster from my 94 S500. I've heard that may work on the 400E. Does anyone know if that's correct, and whether it would be a worthwhile upgrade? Anything else I should be considering? I've looked around for sway bar upgrades, but it seems everything is NLA.

 

[gsxr]

B8's or KONI Yellows are the way to go if you want a firm/sporty ride and aren't particularly concerned about it being soft/comfy. I'd pick one of the shorter / firmer stop buffers up front when installing, along with new (OE only!) accordion dust boots.

The late 034 front brakes (294x25) are the largest that will fit under the CLK wheels without using spacers to clear the caliper... unless you want to mess with W210 single-piston front brakes that are 300x28, but I forget what's needed to make that setup work on a 124. In the rear you can fit up to 300mm brakes, solid or vented.

No need to mess with the master cylinder, leave it alone.

Blue Ridge has larger sway bars but they'll cost several times what you paid for the car. I don't know of any other options for the front. The W210 E55 rear bar *almost* fits but contacts the fuel tank outlet, it would take creative mods to make this work, and then you'd have a tail-happy car unless you also got a larger front bar. I recall mention of an R129 bar fitting up front but I also thought there were problems with that... might be worth searching to confirm? Pre-NLA it wasn't worth messing with either of these (W210 rear / R129 front) but now that we can't get the 036 bars anymore, desperate times, desperate measures, yadda x3...

 

[ccrelan]

w210 wagon rear bar is a cheap and easy upgrade

 

[gsxr]

w210 wagon rear bar is a cheap and easy upgrade

Cory, do you know the diameter of the 210 wagon rear bar? And if it has a similar shape as the E55 rear bar?

I'm seeing 210-326-22-65 as the wagon rear bar p/n but it's NLA per MB Classic (link). There appears to be a Sport package version that should be larger diameter, 210-326-23-65, also NLA, also unknown diameter. I found unconfirmed data showing 18mm standard 210 rear, 20mm "Sport" 210 rear. The V8 wagons used 210-326-23-65 as standard rear bar, and 210-326-24-65 for Sports chassis rear bar.

There's an E50/E60 rear bar too, HWA-210-326-01-65! And, of course, also NLA (link).

Pity all the W210 rear bars are NLA too.

 

[ccrelan]

I will measure it and post pictures when I get a chance to get at the car.

 

[sheward]

The W210 E55 rear bar measures 21mm.

 

[Beater400E]

Getting ready to make a massive parts order.

What is the consensus on brake pads? Dave, are you still recommending Porterfields? How do they compare with the various EBC options?

I expect to do plenty of "spirited" street driving, but minimal track use other than an occasional drag strip pass or autocross session.

 

[gsxr]

I still like the overall feel of the Porterfield R4-S compound, but they sure are pricey. I haven't yet found a less-expensive pad with equivalent overall performance. It's a medium-dust pad.

I have not yet tried any of the EBC pads. I've been wanting to try the Green and Yellow compounds and see what they are like. There are some old threads discussing this, as with any subjective topics, opinions vary widely.

 

[Beater400E]

I still like the overall feel of the Porterfield R4-S compound, but they sure are pricey. I haven't yet found a less-expensive pad with equivalent overall performance. It's a medium-dust pad.

I have not yet tried any of the EBC pads. I've been wanting to try the Green and Yellow compounds and see what they are like. There are some old threads discussing this, as with any subjective topics, opinions vary widely.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was reading. The dust doesn't concern me. I can clean it. The price doesn't bother me much. The Redstuff pads are cheaper for sure, but Yellowstuff vs R4-S are similarly priced. I'll probably just go with the R4-S.