The $400 400E

[gsxr]

Data in bold are measurements I took personally, and I'm confident the numbers are accurate within ±0.05mm. Other data is unconfirmed. Base circles are always between 37.00-37.10mm. I never had .960 cams to measure. Based on what you stated above, I'm wondering if Jono sent me data from other cams (not .960 cams). He had told me 15 years ago that he measured the .960 cams, and they were identical to E420 cams he also measured, which seems weird.

If you can double-check / verify any of the data below, that would be great.

M119.971/.975:​

4.2L 1992 intake = ?​

4.2L 1992 exhaust = ?​

4.2L 1993+ intake = 8.45mm​

4.2L 1993+ exhaust = 7.40mm​

​

M119.960​

5.0L 1992 intake = 8.60mm (data from Jono)​

5.0L 1992 exhaust = 7.60mm (data from Jono)​

​

M119.970/.972/.974:​

5.0L 1992 intake = 9.50mm​

5.0L 1992 exhaust = 8.75mm​

5.0L 1993+ intake = 8.90mm​

5.0L 1993+ exhaust = 8.40mm​

​

5.0L E50 AMG intake = 10.40mm (data from @Taxi Driver)​

5.0L E50 AMG exhaust = 9.40mm (data from @Taxi Driver)​

6.0L E60 AMG intake = 10.10mm (data from @Rouven036 in this post, LH engine, cam code numbers possibly #18-#21)​

6.0L E60 AMG exhaust = 9.80mm (data from @Rouven036 in this post, LH engine, cam code numbers possibly #18-#21)​

6.0L E60 AMG intake = 10.2mm (Benzworld post, LH cams)​

6.0L E60 AMG exhaust = 9.70mm (Benzworld post, LH cams)​

​

M119.98x AMG 6.0L:​

6.0L E60 AMG intake = 10.15mm (data from Jono, I think these were camshaft codes #26-#31 for ME)​

6.0L E60 AMG exhaust = 9.40mm (data from Jono, I think these were camshaft codes #26-#31 for ME)​

6.0L E60 AMG intake = 10.1mm (Benzworld post, ME cams)​

6.0L E60 AMG exhaust = 9.60mm (Benzworld post, ME cams)​

The AMG 6.0L camshafts are different between LH (#18-21) and ME (#26-31). The code numbers are stamped on the flange of the cams. I suspect the lift is slightly different between the LH and ME cams. No idea about duration.

Note there is quite a spread on the measurements of 6.0L exhaust cams (9.4 to 9.8mm). It's surprisingly difficult to get precise measurements (better than 0.05mm accuracy), which is why I think the numbers vary so much from different people measuring. I took a LOT of repeated measurements to get my 4.2/5.0 data in bold above. I also had to measure multiple different lobes, as there was some variation between lobes.

 

[gsxr]

BTW, note the AMG porting job shown in post #293 here.

 

[Beater400E]

M119.9605.0L 1992 intake = 8.60mm (data from Jono)5.0L 1992 exhaust = 7.60mm (data from Jono)M119.970/.972/.974:5.0L 1992 intake = 9.50mm5.0L 1992 exhaust = 8.75mm5.0L 1993+ intake = 8.90mm5.0L 1993+ exhaust = 8.40mm

I'm surprised to see such a difference in some of our numbers. Especially the 960 numbers. I may have to set up a more precise measuring jig to validate some of what I got. When I measured yesterday I just used a dial caliper on cams that were installed in engines, but it was tough to get good numbers. Maybe I'll yank a few out and bench test them with an actual dial indicator.

 

[gsxr]

I think the .960 numbers I got were in error. I suspect your data is correct, that the .960 and early .97x are nearly identical except for the 5° difference in cam advance (noted in the FSM documents).

I use a caliper on multiple lobes, and rotate the cams as needed to get the calipers on the cams evenly. And I repeat measurements until the results start matching. I'm pretty confident my data is close to reality.

Bummer the E50 cams are NLA (but, they were $4k/set when available, ouch).

 

[Beater400E]

Bummer the E50 cams are NLA (but, they were $4k/set when available, ouch).

Yeah, those would definitely make more power. I have been thinking of having a set of cams reground. I don't see why that couldn't be done by a regular cam grinding specialist in the states. I bet that could be done for $1000 or less.

 

[gsxr]

Yeah, those would definitely make more power. I have been thinking of having a set of cams reground. I don't see why that couldn't be done by a regular cam grinding specialist in the states. I bet that could be done for $1000 or less.

Search the forum for past discussions on Hagmann and Dbilas regrinds. The base circle is reduced which could cause issues. Main concerns are:

1) Verify max lift with stock valve springs (may be different with single springs vs dual springs)

2) A spacer "button" might be required under each lifter due to the reduced base circle

Pre-tariff, the M119 regrinds weren't terribly expensive in Europe, but shipping the cams overseas both ways would be spendy due to the size/weight. For me personally, it was the complete lack of data provided by those 2 vendors which kept me from pursuing it further. All I wanted was a simple before/after dyno graph.

 

[Beater400E]

Search the forum for past discussions on Hagmann and Dbilas regrinds. The base circle is reduced which could cause issues. Main concerns are:

1) Verify max lift with stock valve springs (may be different with single springs vs dual springs)

2) A spacer "button" might be required under each lifter due to the reduced base circle

Pre-tariff, the M119 regrinds weren't terribly expensive in Europe, but shipping the cams overseas both ways would be spendy due to the size/weight. For me personally, it was the complete lack of data provided by those 2 vendors which kept me from pursuing it further. All I wanted was a simple before/after dyno graph.

Right, I figured a valve lash caps would be able to compensate for the reduced base circle. Springs would have to be checked for sure, but I'm certain I could find an off the shelf option that would work if needed.

There are regrinders in the pacific northwest that could probably do it, which eliminates pricey shipping and tariff concerns. Obviously they couldn't give before and after dyno numbers since they regrind all kinds of cams, but they could certainly apply a proven grind profile based on the specifications of the engine and their experience with other similar applications.

 

[Beater400E]

The part car/test mule has been parked for a couple weeks while I deal with other things, but I'm hoping to bring it back in in a couple weeks to continue work.

When I swap the 5.0 into the 400E I want to replace the caps, rotor, and the silly insulator things. In all this time I've never purchased a new set for any of my cars. I have a bunch of decent used ones and I've just been using the best of those. With the motor swap I plan to actually install new.

So what are the best parts currently available? I've seen plenty of discussion in the past, but I'm not sure that everything that has been recommended before is still available now. I'll post some of the options I'm finding later and see what the community thinks.

 

[Beater400E]

Caps:
OE ($190 each!)
Karlin/Bremi
Bosch
Standard
Wells

Rotors:
OE ($109 each!)
Bosch
Beru
Karlin/Bremi
Facet
Standard
Wells

Insulators/Dust Shields
OE ($128 each!)
Bosch


I'm sure some would argue just getting them all OE from the dealer is the only way to go, but I'm not too keen on spending over $850 on caps and rotors for a $400 car. What's the next-best option?

 

[gsxr]

Aftermarket Bosch for everything.

Beru caps are NLA, Beru rotors are now rebranded Facet.

OE (Doduco) rotors are my preference, but those are EXPENSIVE. I expect these will be NLA when MB inventory is depleted.

OE caps used to be different vs Bosch aftermarket, the OE had a clearcoat applied inside. Now, they appear identical and OE isn't worth paying 2x-3x for.

Everything else is junk. Only possibility is if a reboxer has Bosch in the box (Standard, etc) but that's a big gamble.

 

[Beater400E]

Aftermarket Bosch for everything.

Beru caps are NLA, Beru rotors are now rebranded Facet.

OE (Doduco) rotors are my preference, but those are EXPENSIVE. I expect these will be NLA when MB inventory is depleted.

OE caps used to be different vs Bosch aftermarket, the OE had a clearcoat applied inside. Now, they appear identical and OE isn't worth paying 2x-3x for.

Everything else is junk. Only possibility is if a reboxer has Bosch in the box (Standard, etc) but that's a big gamble.

Ok, that's easy. Still not cheap, but much better than dealer prices. I'll start rounding those up.

It's certainly possible that Bosch parts could be found in abother box, but those other brands tend to be as much or MORE than the actual Bosch parts. Bremi appear to be the only ones consistently cheaper than Bosch. I've seen them both and am familiar with the quality. Bosch gets my money.

 

[Beater400E]

For any who don't follow the thread for my 500SL Offroadster, I'm currently working on a possible solution for the weak cv axle outer stub shafts on these cars. The BMW E34 rear hub design is much stronger than the Mercedes design and I think can be made to bolt up with some minor changes. More details to come once I get my hands on some parts.

 

[Beater400E]

Ok, I have caps, rotors, and dust shields/insulators/random orange doo-dads on order.

I searched high and low for the best prices and came away at $407.28 total including tax and shipping. All parts are new Bosch from ebay.

In case anyone is in the market, here are today's best prices.

Caps: BOSCH Distributor Cap 03367 Mercedes Benz SL500 S500 E500 500SL E420 S420 500SEL | eBay
Listed at $89 with free shipping. Offered $80 each and seller accepted. $169.60 total including tax.

Rotors: Bosch Ignition Rotor 04271 for Mercedes R129 W124 W140 E420 S500 400E 400SE 500E | eBay
Listed at $41.96 each with free shipping, but discounted to $41.12 each with an order quantity of 2. $87.18 total including tax.

Dust shields: For Mercedes Benz 500SL 400SE 400SEL 500SEC E420 Bosch Distributor Dust Shield | eBay
Listed at $72.44 each with free shipping. Discounted to $70.99 each with an order quantity of 2. $150.50 total including tax.

 

[Beater400E]

Here's a fun one.

I was sorting through some of my parts inventory and needing to remember which timing chain guide rail was which. I went searching documentation for the 100th time, and realized I wasn't really happy with any of the documents out there. The info exists, but I wanted to be able to find all the part numbers for the specific parts in each location at a quick glance. So, uh, I made it.

This is absolutely for everyone to use. Dave, feel free to put this on your site. Everyone feel free to share this with whoever needs it. I just wanted a handy resource for this info.

 

[TimL]

Here's a fun one.

I was sorting through some of my parts inventory and needing to remember which timing chain guide rail was which. I went searching documentation for the 100th time, and realized I wasn't really happy with any of the documents out there. The info exists, but I wanted to be able to find all the part numbers for the specific parts in each location at a quick glance. So, uh, I made it.

This is absolutely for everyone to use. Dave, feel free to put this on your site. Everyone feel free to share this with whoever needs it. I just wanted a handy resource for this info.

View attachment 228503

@Beater400E, that is awesome and to my mind so in the spirit of this forum!

 

[Beater400E]

Now, for another stupid question.

Let's say you had a $400 Mercedes and didn't feel like shelling out a zillion dollars for whatever the best quality motor mounts are right now. Let's also say you were wanting, or at least willing to accept a slightly sportier feel to your car that would come from mounts that are not hydraulic. What would you do?

I know there's some discussion of getting the cheap Chinese mounts, relieving them of their inferior hydraulical goo, and filling them with urethane or some such thing. That's an option I'm certainly curious about.

There's another, even worse option I'm very seriously considering. I recently picked up a set of close-out Anchor solid rubber motor mounts. I know, I know. Anchor bad. But, they were seriously like $10 each, so I just grabbed them. Being solid rubber, I don't really see how they could be problematic. I think when I drop the 5.0 engine in, I may actually toss these in. What's the worst that could happen?

 

[gsxr]

Let's say you had a $400 Mercedes and didn't feel like shelling out a zillion dollars for whatever the best quality motor mounts are right now. Let's also say you were wanting, or at least willing to accept a slightly sportier feel to your car that would come from mounts that are not hydraulic. What would you do?

I'd get the cheapest closeout set I could find at Rocky Auto.

I know there's some discussion of getting the cheap Chinese mounts, relieving them of their inferior hydraulical goo, and filling them with urethane or some such thing. That's an option I'm certainly curious about.

Never done this, but I'd attempt it with a pair of the aforementioned cheapies.

There's another, even worse option I'm very seriously considering. I recently picked up a set of close-out Anchor solid rubber motor mounts. I know, I know. Anchor bad. But, they were seriously like $10 each, so I just grabbed them. Being solid rubber, I don't really see how they could be problematic. I think when I drop the 5.0 engine in, I may actually toss these in. What's the worst that could happen?

I had no idea there was a solid-rubber mount offered for the M119. Only concern is how much rubber vs metal there is in the design... are they robust enough? You may want to cut open an old OEM mount to see how they are designed. I have a feeling they are more complex than they appear.

 

[Beater400E]

You may want to cut open an old OEM mount to see how they are designed. I have a feeling they are more complex than they appear.

That sounds messy and fun.

 

[Beater400E]

A while back I'd been having issues with my fuel gauge fluttering all over the place, especially in the middle of the range. I used some fuel system cleaner, which seemed to help a bit for a short time, but soon enough the issue returned. Yesterday I did what I should have done before.

I pulled the fuel sender out of the tank. I forgot just how easy that is in the W124. With the sender out, I disassembled and cleaned it all up. Everything had a light coat of varnish. I gently cleaned the sender wires with brake parts cleaner. I ended up just cleaning, lubing, and reusing the sender retaining ring o rings.

Everything went back together smoothly and I filled the car with fuel this morning. So far everything seems good. I won't know for sure how well it worked until I run couple tanks through it and see how it behaves around a half tank of fuel. I'm pretty confident it's fixed though.