The $400 400E

[gsxr]

For that matter, is any non-OE oil pressure switch worth considering?

Nope. OE (or OEM Hella/VDO) for both the oil pressure sensor below the filter housing, and the oil level switch inside the sump. All the cheap options are garbage.

Who knows about the oil filter check valve upgrade thing? This engine is a 95, so it should have the updated check valve, right? Is there any reason to put a new check valve in it while I have it apart?

95 should have the late style. The only reason to swap in a new check valve is because the O-ring may not seal well, and AFAIK the O-ring isn't available separately, you have to buy the valve "kit" to get the O-ring. This should be optional work, but it's 100x easier with the engine out. Removing the filter housing with the engine in the car is no fun.

 

[Beater400E]

I'll probably just get both OE.

Incidentally, it's a little funny to me how so many decisions are driven by avoidance of labor. Not trying to throw shade here, but this car isn't actually all that bad to work on.

I've had many projects become infeasible in the past by allowing scope creep to turn a reasonable project into complete overkill, and most often the main issue was that I tried to do too much while I was already in there.

Maybe it's just me, but by putting limits on a task and working through the task within those limits, and understanding that yes, I may have to touch the same bolts again for another task in the future, and that's ok, I'm able to keep the scope of a task reasonable, and to limit the number of variables that add complexity, and thereby risk to the task.

 

[sheward]

There is truth in that. Somewhat depends on your working environment. To reference your engine mount thoughts, The job is not that bad IF you have a lift, the exhaust fasteners have been replaced and the bolts in the mounts are not frozen in.

Also depends on one's budget.

 

[gsxr]

There is truth in that. Somewhat depends on your working environment. To reference your engine mount thoughts, The job is not that bad IF you have a lift, the exhaust fasteners have been replaced and the bolts in the mounts are not frozen in.

Agree 1000%. Engine mounts are not bad at all, with the above caveats. Few hours tops. Attempting this on your back in a driveway is miserable, and if there are rusted or seized fasteners... is nightmare fuel.

 

[Beater400E]

There is truth in that. Somewhat depends on your working environment. To reference your engine mount thoughts, The job is not that bad IF you have a lift, the exhaust fasteners have been replaced and the bolts in the mounts are not frozen in.

Also depends on one's budget.

Agree 1000%. Engine mounts are not bad at all, with the above caveats. Few hours tops. Attempting this on your back in a driveway is miserable, and if there are rusted or seized fasteners... is nightmare fuel.

Totally true. I definitely have it easy with my lift, climate controlled shop, and 100% rust-free car.

 

[dreaming.haze]

Totally true. I definitely have it easy with my lift, climate controlled shop, and 100% rust-free car.

Agreed on things because of the shop you've got (and skills shown). I did the engine mounts a few months back and they had been on there since factory from what I could tell. Top bolts took some effort to loosen up due to space constraints.

 

[Beater400E]

Wow. I got my shopping list together and checked online prices from a bunch of places. Naperville actually had the best prices on pretty much everything. I thought I'd try my local MB dealership just to see how close they'd be. I figured they might be 10-20% more. I went down there on my lunch break today and discovered I was very wrong.

Naperville wanted $173 for everything on my list. My local dealer wanted over $600. I told them they were crazy and noped right out of there. Naperville will get my money once again.

 

[gsxr]

Most local dealers will typically charge 50%-100% above MSRP (some may be even worse, particularly in cities with wealthy customer base - think SF Bay & surrounding area). Based on a $173 Naperville order, that would put MSRP around $235, so yeah... more than double. Welcome to "matrix pricing". On a larger order (closer to $1k) you might get them a bit below MSRP, if you give them sad eyes...

 

[Beater400E]

I have the cylinder heads torn down. Everything looks beautiful. Honestly these heads didn't really need anything, although the head gaskets themselves were pretty rough. I'm glad I pulled the heads off just for that.

Just for fun, here's my method for cleaning the heads. I have a storage tote from Home Depot, full of 10 gallons of water and one gallon of Zep Heavy Duty citrus cleaner. It's aluminum safe, so no worries there. One cylinder head at a time goes in the bath. Then, I drop in a submersible water heater that thermostatically keeps the water around 140° F (60° C). Finally, a pond pump with a hose just long enough to pump the water to the opposite corner of the tote. Total cost was around $50, but everything aside from the cleaner is reusable.

It works great. Grease, oil, dirt, and carbon deposits all either just fall off, or come off with minimal effort after a few hours in the bath. Best method is to just simmer for a few hours, then pull it out and wipe/scrub everything, then a few more hours to get the last little bit off.

So, while I have the heads apart, I have to ask. Do these heads respond to port work? Does anyone have any guidance for what works and what doesn't with these heads? I'm leaning towards just leaving them alone, but if meaningful gains can be had I'm willing to put some time in on them.

 

[a777fan]

I’m sure Dave and perhaps @jhodg5ck will be able to answer your port query.

 

[TerryA]

@Beater400E,
At a minimum I think you should change the valve seals. After 30+ years the original seals have to be very brittle.

 

[Beater400E]

@Beater400E,
At a minimum I think you should change the valve seals. After 30+ years the original seals have to be very brittle.

Yes, I have new seals that will be going in. The original seals were actually less brittle than you might expect, but they're getting replaced.

 

[Beater400E]

Ok, I have another ridiculous question. What if I installed intake cams in place of the exhaust cams? The intake cams have higher lift and longer duration. They will bolt in. I'd have to do a little work to get them timed correctly, and I might also have to plug the oil holes in the front of the cams, but I have the tools to do that, so those both seem doable. Seems like essentially free gains since I have the parts and the ability to make the changes. What drawbacks would there be?

 

[gsxr]

I have no idea what would happen (and, didn't realize they would bolt in!). Also not sure how you could time them correctly - may need to use sprockets with ovaled holes for additional adjustment.

Another question is what happens if you use 1992 cams in a 1993-up engine, since the 1992 has slightly more lift... assuming there's no spring coil bind.

Read the old threads about Hagmann and Dbilas regrinds for M119... nobody in USA ever tried these out, although I was really tempted. Risk of shipping 4 cams overseas, plus $$$$, made it less enticing for relatively lower gains.

 

[Beater400E]

I have no idea what would happen (and, didn't realize they would bolt in!). Also not sure how you could time them correctly - may need to use sprockets with ovaled holes for additional adjustment.

Another question is what happens if you use 1992 cams in a 1993-up engine, since the 1992 has slightly more lift... assuming there's no spring coil bind.

Read the old threads about Hagmann and Dbilas regrinds for M119... nobody in USA ever tried these out, although I was really tempted. Risk of shipping 4 cams overseas, plus $$$$, made it less enticing for relatively lower gains.

I can't imagine coil spring bind would be an issue. Would I be correct in assuming a 4.2 uses different cams than a 5.0? If they happen to be the same I have a set in the car now that I could use.

I've thought about regrinds, but they are pretty pricey and regrinds in general have a reputation for short lifespans.

I love the idea of mixing and matching the very best OE parts to put together an affordable hot rod of sorts. In theory you end up with a car that's as reliable as stock, but better performing than any stock version of the car.

 

[Beater400E]

Also not sure how you could time them correctly - may need to use sprockets with ovaled holes for additional adjustment.

I figure the cam would need a new hole in the correct spot to insert a dowel and time it. Then the sprocket would need to bolt on in such a way that the teeth align with that timing hole the same as they did from the factory. Then, I'd have to redrill and press in the dowel that locks the sprocket position to the cam. It might require slotting the sprockets. Not sure.

It would require a lot of precision measurements to make sure everything ends up in the right spot, but I have the tools to do it.

I may experiment with it and see what I can do. Worst case I scrap an extra set of cams. Best case, it's essentially free horsepower.

 

[Beater400E]

I took some measurements on the 5.0 intake and exhaust cams. Lift on the intake is 0.350"/8.89mm. Lift on exhaust is 0.330"/8.38mm.

My duration measurements should not be taken as gospel. What I did was set up each cam on v blocks and attached a degree wheel, then used a dial indicator to find the point where the cam had 0.050" lift on the lobe. I set a pointer on the degree wheel, and then rotated the cam over the lobe until it came back down to 0.050". That means what I'm actually measuring is duration degree of CAM duration at the lobe at .050" lift. That is not a standard measurement that cam manufacturers use to describe cams, but for the sake of comparison it will work fine.

The intake had 77 degrees duration at 0.050". The exhaust had 73 degrees.

The extra lift and duration should give a bit more top end power. I'm curious about those 92 cams. I'd love to find some real specs on all these cams to determine the best possible combination of OE parts.

 

[Beater400E]

Looks like timing the cam will be pretty easy. The cam sprocket has 36 teeth and the cam will need to be turned 90 degrees, so I just have to install it 9 teeth off from stock. The only issue then is that the distributor rotor will be 90 degrees off. I think what I'll do it mill a new slot in the rotor bracket 90 degrees off from the original. I'll probably do something to fill in the original to ensure I don't install the bracket wrong at some point in the future.

It would be interesting to A/B test this on a dyno, but I won't be the one to do it. Dave, if you ever want to test this on the dyno in one of your cars let me know. I'll be happy to help.

So I think I'm going to do it. I'd still love to know if there are definitively better cams out there I could try. Half a millimeter of lift or a few degrees duration is not nothing and I see no reason not to use the best I can find.

 

[Beater400E]

I decided to set up a degree wheel directly on the cam and measure both cams to determine the exact offset. They are actually 95 degrees offset. If I install the intake cam 9 teeth off, that's correct 90 degrees of the timing. I'd still be 5 degrees off. That's 5 degrees at the cam, meaning 10 degrees of crankshaft rotation. The only solution is either to redrill the cam, or slot the sprocket bolt holes.

Redrilling the cam really isn't an option since some of the new holes would align with some of the old ones. That means I can either install the cam 10 degrees off, or slot the sprocket holes.

I'm going to slot the sprockets.

 

[Beater400E]

Cam sprockets are ready to go. They're slotted 9 degrees either direction from stock, so 18 total degrees of freedom. Should be more than enough.

 

[a777fan]

Interestingly, thats how BMW made the sprockets for the M60. Slots to ‘dial’ in the camshaft positions.

 

[Beater400E]

Interestingly, thats how BMW made the sprockets for the M60. Slots to ‘dial’ in the camshaft positions.

Yeah, it's a pretty common solution for this problem. The best engineering solution is someone else's.

 

[Beater400E]

I heard from the eBay seller of my 6 speed transmission today. The transmission is on its way from Lithuania to the UK right now. It should be on its way to the States by the end of the week. Fingers crossed.

The cylinder heads are slowly coming along. I should have them all cleaned up and back together by the end if the week. I started tearing the block down today as well. I wasn't going to pull the pistons and crank initially, but I decided it would be easiest to clean and prep everything if it's was fully disassembled first.

I'm on the hunt for a pair of 92 intake cams. So far I haven't found any. If anyone knows of any for sale anywhere, please let me know.

 

[Beater400E]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. I'm a sucker for a bad idea.

There is a 92 500SEL for sale about 500 miles away. I've talked to the guy about it. He's willing to take $600 for it. Supposedly the car runs and drives fine, but the battery keeps going dead. He replaced the battery and alternator, but it continues killing the battery. Other than that, the car is solid supposedly.

So I'm thinking of driving down and buying it this weekend. The thought is that I'd try to fix whatever is wrong with it, and then swap a few choice parts around, and then flip the car. I have a 95 LH module on the shelf that I could swap in, allowing me to keep the 92 LH module. I'd do the same with the intake cams. I know that sounds crazy, but getting the valve covers off a W140 is super easy.

I'd probably swap the cam oiler tubes while I'm at it, and a few other things. In my opinion, downgrading these few parts to 93+ spec doesn't harm the car so I don't feel bad about doing it.

If it turns out the car isn't reasonably fixable, then it would just become another parts car. I'm confident I could get significantly more than $600 out of it. Heck, those few parts alone should cover it.

Any reason I shouldn't do it?

 

[gsxr]

If cost to drive home (or transport) is reasonable... I'd be all over that. As you said, there is potential to flip or part out, depending on condition. Either way you'll only be out time, not $$$.

 

[Beater400E]

If cost to drive home (or transport) is reasonable... I'd be all over that. As you said, there is potential to flip or part out, depending on condition. Either way you'll only be out time, not $$$.

It'll cost me $300-400 total for fuel and probably a night in a hotel, but I usually don't count that since the adventure is entertainment. I've asked the guy to give me the VIN so I can verify that's it's a 92. I'd hate to get there and discover it's a 93. I'm sure I could still get my money out of it, but if I don't score the 92 parts I'm after I'm not nearly as interested.

 

[gsxr]

Agreed - mostly interested as a 1992, which should also have the LH module you want and probably metal oil tubes.

The 1993 could be worth it for the parts but it would be a less lucrative flip, unless REALLY nice shape and lower miles. 163kmi isn't bad, but it's a pity the factory Bose stereo was butchered with an aftermarket amp. The stock stereo is really good on the 140.

 

[sheward]

There is always the possibility someone put new wires/caps/MAF, etc. before giving up. Spare smog pump, ETA, alternator, fan clutch.

163,000 isn't bad as you said, on a W140. It may have had some maintenance. It's an adventure and a gamble for those of us that don't play cards.

 

[Beater400E]

Agreed - mostly interested as a 1992, which should also have the LH module you want and probably metal oil tubes.

The 1993 could be worth it for the parts but it would be a less lucrative flip, unless REALLY nice shape and lower miles. 163kmi isn't bad, but it's a pity the factory Bose stereo was butchered with an aftermarket amp. The stock stereo is really good on the 140.

I already have a 92 LH, and metal oil tubes, but I wouldn't mind having more as spares or to sell.

Any idea if the factory 140 stereo can be made to work in the 124? My 400E's stock stereo was all ripped out when I bought it, so it has cheap aftermarket junk in it right now. I'd love to reinstate a factory type stereo, but not really sure what works and what doesn't. I do still have the stock stuff from my 94 S500. I'm just not sure if that's useful for the 124.

 

[gsxr]

Any idea if the factory 140 stereo can be made to work in the 124?

Nope. They are completely different in almost every way. 140 has 3 separate drivers in each front door (tweeter, midrange, woofer), a center channel behind the rearview mirror, and 4 subwoofers across the rear deck. Nothing will work in a 124 chassis. And, I assume the 140 system was not working in that 500SEL (the large Bose amp is a common failure) so it might not be of any use.

My 400E's stock stereo was all ripped out when I bought it, so it has cheap aftermarket junk in it right now. I'd love to reinstate a factory type stereo, but not really sure what works and what doesn't. I do still have the stock stuff from my 94 S500. I'm just not sure if that's useful for the 124.

Same for the 1994 stereo components - won't work in a 124. [warning - Jlaa, close your eyes/ears:] I'm not a big fan of the 1432 systems used from 1991-1993 in the 124 chassis because it's difficult-ish to upgrade the head unit to aftermarket while retaining the rest of the system (amps/speakers). However, the 1994-95 Sound System used in the W124 sedan with 1492 head unit is totally different... a number of aftermarket head units are plug+play from VDO, H-K, etc. Converting a 92-93 car requires pulling the seats and floor carpet out to swap the wiring harness though. I extracted this from an E420 and dream of one day converting my 93 500E with the later system...

 

[Beater400E]

I assume the 140 system was not working in that 500SEL (the large Bose amp is a common failure) so it might not be of any use.

I'd say odds are good that someone wanted to install aftermarket subwoofers and thought this was the easiest way. You could be right, bur I've seen plenty of cases where people have ripped out a nice factory system to install generic aftermarket junk for the sake of subs or blue teeth.

However, the 1994-95 Sound System used in the W124 sedan with 1492 head unit is totally different... a number of aftermarket head units are plug+play from VDO, H-K, etc. Converting a 92-93 car requires pulling the seats and floor carpet out to swap the wiring harness though. I extracted this from an E420 and dream of one day converting my 93 500E with the later system...

Some day I'll find another parts car with the whole system intact and I'll swap it over. I do hate interior work, but it would be really nice to reinstate a decent sound system in the car.

 

[Beater400E]

Apparently I can't get the guy to take my money. Got to love Facebook Marketplace. I told him I could be there tomorrow afternoon, I just needed the VIN, and a place and time. At that point dude stopped responding.

I'm sure I'll either get a response in the middle of the night, or mid-morning tomorrow, AFTER I would have needed to leave to make it there by tomorrow afternoon.

I should have known when his response to my asking whether the car was still available was "ye."

 

[Beater400E]

Look what just arrived.



Plug wire Lengths:
890mm
920mm
945mm
965mm
995mm
1045mm
1045mm
1070mm

Coil wire lengths:
585mm
785mm
1195mm

Wire lengths were measured from mold parting line to mold parting line on the boots. Not sure if that's how others are measuring lengths. If anyone wants me to measure them differently let me know and I'd be happy to update.

Construction seems nice and robust. The blue wire insulation is flexible, but seems very tough. Should stand up to abrasion and manipulation very well I'd think.

I don't see any manufacturer names on any of the boots. I can see that the terminals are machined brass, with a spring steel wire retainer to lock onto the plug. No indication how the terminal is connected to the wire.

I think I'm pretty happy with them. They were $221.99 with free shipping from Summit Racing. They were backordered, but I still received them less than 3 weeks after I ordered them.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for the measurements and photos! If my maths are correct, these wires are mostly about 2.0-2.5" longer than stock, with a couple 3.0-4.0" longer. It may take some creative routing to get them to lay correctly in the valve covers, and have the plastic dust cover fit neatly over the distributor caps.

I also measured from mold parting line to mold parting line on the boots, btw.

Is there any COO listed on the box or label?

 

[Beater400E]

The wires themselves say USA. The box indicates "Product of the USA and Mexico"

 

[Beater400E]

You wouldn't think you'd need so much space just to refresh one engine, but you'd be wrong.

 

[gsxr]

Awesome! BTW, I assume you got the correct head gaskets for open-deck block, correct? The gaskets are different part numbers / different design.

 

[Beater400E]

Awesome! BTW, I assume you got the correct head gaskets for open-deck block, correct? The gaskets are different part numbers / different design.

I believe so. Obviously this is an open deck block. These are correct for the open deck, right?

 

[gsxr]

Open-deck block gaskets are 119-016-37-20 and 119-016-38-20. Do those Victor numbers translate correctly?

Closed-deck would be 119-016-18-20 and 119-016-19-20 except for very early production which uses an oddball passenger/right side gasket, through something like mid-1991.

 

[Beater400E]

Looks like I should be good.
61-29255-00 = 119-016-37-20
61-29260-00 = 119-016-38-20

 

[Beater400E]

Let's talk crankshaft bearings. I have the engine fully stripped down to a bare block and I've been able to clean and inspect everything. Some of my crankshaft bearings are looking pretty poor.

Connecting rod bearings appear to be pretty straightforward. Roughly $50 will get me a full set from Naperville (assuming they do actually have them.)

Main bearings are a different story. I'm having a tough time figuring out exactly what I need.

Both of my crankshafts are basically flawless, so I'll be looking for standard size bearings.

Does anyone know exactly what the best option is for main bearings? I'm looking for part numbers and hopefully an actual source that won't cost a fortune.

 

[gsxr]

Rod bearings look like p/n A1020384210 which MBCC claims are still available, but Naperville shows this superceding to A1110380910 which are $6.67/ea or $110/set. Not sure if this is a bad supercession, also not sure what the price is on A1020384210 if actually available.

Crankshaft bearings appear to be available at ~$200/set ($30-$40 each pair) but some code numbers are NLA. Check at MBCC (link), if that shows NLA for a given p/n you're probably SOL, if it shows available you have to call a dealer and ask about inventory.

I can't tell the difference between crank bearing p/n A1190300440 and A1190300540. Both show identical footnotes. The FSM procedure shows that a "fit bearing" is needed in the center for early engines which I think means closed deck, while the standard middle bearing is used for late/open-deck engines.

Do your existing crank bearings have the color indicator present (blue, yellow, red) or is that long gone? Are all 5 bearing pairs the same type, no "fit" bearing in the middle?

 

[Beater400E]

A1110380910 which are $6.67/ea or $110/set

$6.67 × 8 = $53.36, no?

The upper and lower bearing halves are different, so I assume they're sold as pairs. That is the part number I was going to order.

I think the part number I need for main bearings is 119-030-05-40-54.

All 5 bearings are the same type. Not sure what "fit" bearing really means. The center bearing also has the thrust bearings, but they are separate pieces.

I can't see any paint on anything, but all my main journals measure 63.957mm, which is in the middle of the yellow range. I believe the -54 part number is the yellow set. That's what I'm leaning towards right now.

 

[gsxr]

$6.67 × 8 = $53.36, no?

The upper and lower bearing halves are different, so I assume they're sold as pairs. That is the part number I was going to order.

EPC shows qty 16, not 8... so $100+ for a set. Screenshot below. You can try ordering 8 and see what shows up. Upper & lower should be identical for the rod bearings. Crank bearings are sold in matching pairs, upper/lower are different.

I think the part number I need for main bearings is 119-030-05-40-54.

All 5 bearings are the same type. Not sure what "fit" bearing really means. The center bearing also has the thrust bearings, but they are separate pieces.

Look at the FSM, it shows the difference in design for the center bearing. Best I can tell the early engines do not have separate thrust pieces, that function is integrated into the "fit" bearing.

I can't see any paint on anything, but all my main journals measure 63.957mm, which is in the middle of the yellow range. I believe the -54 part number is the yellow set. That's what I'm leaning towards right now.

MBCC shows the 119-030-05-40-54 (yellow) as NLA (link). You'll have to call a dealer to verify. Looks like only 52/blue may be available for the #05.

For 119-030-04-40, possibly blue and yellow are available, and red is NLA, per MBCC. Still don't know the difference between 04 and 05 bearings.

Various photos are on this forum thread.

 

[Beater400E]

Look at the FSM, it shows the difference in design for the center bearing. Best I can tell the early engines do not have separate thrust pieces, that function is integrated into the "fit" bearing.

Got it.

I can add one data point to the knowledge bank then. Neither my open deck nor closed deck block have the "fit" bearings. I noticed the M116/117 bearings are like that. I'd guess MAYBE the .960 bearings might also be? I'd assume all the short deck M119s use the multi-piece thrust bearings.

For 119-030-04-40, possibly blue and yellow are available, and red is NLA, per MBCC. Still don't know the difference between 04 and 05 bearings.

Yeah, I'd like to figure out the difference before I go much further.

 

[Beater400E]

EPC shows qty 16, not 8... so $100+ for a set. Screenshot below. You can try ordering 8 and see what shows up. Upper & lower should be identical for the rod bearings. Crank bearings are sold in matching pairs, upper/lower are different.

From the factory the upper half has an oil hole and the lower half does not. I wonder what's up with that.

 

[Beater400E]

From what I've found online, upper and lower halves are sold together.

 

[gsxr]

My guess is the originals may not have the upper oil hole, but MB standardized and decided the shell with hole could be used in both locations.

I looked up the 111- part number, that also shows they are sold individually. Could also be they are sold in pairs, but the price is each. Regardless, I'd be happy if still available. Some of this stuff has been going NLA.

 

[Beater400E]

I just received this message. This is an attempted scam. Be careful out there.

This may seem obvious to many, but for those who arent as familiar there are a few red flags here.

First, I am looking for a pair of cams, but I have a wanted listing in the forum. I would have expected a response on that post, rather than just a private message out of the blue.

The private message might not have been an immediate red flag, but the request to contact via an outside email is another red flag. I quick check also shows that this person just joined the forum moments before sending me the message. Almost as if they joined just to send this message.

Finally, I googled the email handle "thankfulalways780" and found numerous other suspicious posts and even reports of scam attempts.

Always do your due diligence and be cautious out there.

 

[Beater400E]

I went ahead and ordered bearings from Naperville. We'll see what happens.

Also, Naperville recently made some changes to their online ordering and they currently have no way for people to enter a promo code. I emailed 3 times over the last 2 weeks about my recent order, but they never responded. Today I called and mentioned I'd emailed. They said they have over 300 emails in their inbox so it might be a while before they respond to emails.

Anyway, they were able to accept my promo code over the phone to give me free shipping. Also, while they had me there they informed me that one part that was on that order was not available and that's what was holding up the order. I told them to just remove that from the order, which they did and now the order is ready to ship.

Not impressed that I had to call them to get that sorted. I've not been impressed with Naperville's customer service any of the times I've purchased from them, and this was probably the most annoying. Don't get me wrong, it's the cheapest way to get OE parts, so I'll keep doing it, but I wish they were better at the little things.

TL/DR: You have to call Naperville to get them to apply the 500EPROMO code to your order now.