Valve lifter cleaning / rebuilding?

[JC220]

Mod Note- same lifters in m104 and m119 etc so this is relevant to the 500E hence not posted in off topics but if you prefer to move that's AOK

So after about 2 years likely I have been cleaning the garage and started up my E36. (W124 with 3.6 C36 AMG engine swap)

It is a really clean engine inside- always was! But it was always prone to valve lifter noise. Cured by several starts over time and sometimes valve lifter additive.

This time - ohh dear!! Severe valve lifter noise from maybe cylinder 5 or 6. Terrible noise. Took oil cap off and there is plenty of engine oil pumping so dont believe there is a oil supply issue. (Since C36 clocks installed too no pressure gauge. Will add one at later date. Indeed I plan on using a m104 w124 cluster now instead)

Anyway after a couple of cold to hot warm ups it's still clattering its head off. I believe one or more lifters has totally drained of oil from sitting and will not pump back up. This sucks! I should not have let it sit so long but was avoiding moisture in crankcase from cold start ups.

Anyway I always had lifter issues with that 3.6 so it needs addressing now more than ever. Need to check if these lifters are AMG specific but in any case found this video and I find it very interesting. This should be the answer to properly clean out and find/ clear the sticking lifter(s)

What do you guys think? I have so many projects now that I do not want to simply purchase a full set of new lifters. My preference is very much to strip, inspect and clean the original lifters

 

[JC220]

Ps the 3.6 AMG is notorious for valve lifter noise in general being described as sounding like diesels. But this is now really bad and sudden as a result of this car sitting for a long time without turning over or starting up.

 

[gsxr]

Many years ago, I bought a used 500E engine that had likely been sitting for years. After installing the engine and starting it, there were multiple lifters ticking. However, the noise went away within roughly 30 minutes of driving it (not just idling). I think it takes some time and RPM to get them freed up. Your E36 may just need to be driven a bit to get them working again.

That said... I'm not sure I'd take apart an otherwise good engine to mess with lifter repair, unless you have a lot of time on your hands. I would be very curious to see what the results are if you do it though! But for a proper test, you'd also have to let the engine sit another 2 years...

 

[JC220]

Many years ago, I bought a used 500E engine that had likely been sitting for years. After installing the engine and starting it, there were multiple lifters ticking. However, the noise went away within roughly 30 minutes of driving it (not just idling). I think it takes some time and RPM to get them freed up. Your E36 may just need to be driven a bit to get them working again.

That said... I'm not sure I'd take apart an otherwise good engine to mess with lifter repair, unless you have a lot of time on your hands. I would be very curious to see what the results are if you do it though! But for a proper test, you'd also have to let the engine sit another 2 years...

That's all good info! Yes true that a proper drive could help. Unfortunately that is not possible until the car is repainted and MOTd. But I could simulate a test drive by holding the throttle I guess. It has no exhaust system yet either so sounds like thunder running basically down pipes only!

Sigh - I really should finish that project but it wont happen this year I know that much. 2x w220s to prep for a wedding in Nov so that's priority this year.

I also dont really have time to take into this right now. If I did have spare time I believe I would just delve into the proper disassemble, inspection and cleaning of the 3.6's Lifters and I'm almost certain that would leave it good again.

I may start it up each evening now when I get home from work and let It run for a solid 30 mins or so each time and see if it does eventually free the stuck lifter(s) off on it's own to let me away for now

 

[Rouven036]

It usually takes some time to fill drained lifters, driving it for a while is usually best since oil temps will be higher which will help to reduce viscosity and fill the lifter faster. Also seen the video, while being an interesting approach I don't see the point to play with a noisy lifter only to find its the same issue afterwards. Also would not recommend to put any of these parts onto a magnet since they will pick up metal debris

 

[gsxr]

If you can't drive it, the oil will take for-ev-er to come up to temp. If you have any method to heat the oil in the sump, that may help, if holding at say 2000rpm in the driveway.

Rouven, I thought the same thing about the magnet - not a good idea. The FSM mentions this somewhere, that magnetic tools should not be used to pull lifters out of the head. Same logic applies to the little bits inside.

 

[JC220]

This is an older video of mine taken just after I did the transplant. You can hear the C36 characteristic lifter noise there.

However now it is really, really bad and I know it's a case of a lifter or two that happened to be left compressed are now not pumping up again.

 

[JC220]

It usually takes some time to fill drained lifters, driving it for a while is usually best since oil temps will be higher which will help to reduce viscosity and fill the lifter faster. Also seen the video, while being an interesting approach I don't see the point to play with a noisy lifter only to find its the same issue afterwards. Also would not recommend to put any of these parts onto a magnet since they will pick up metal debris

I would also note down any suspect lifters that come out fully compressed if I did have to proceed with this task soon. The thought being that if the issue persisted than I have already identified how many new lifters are needed and where they are in the engine.

Yes very true on the magnet comment. It is in the FSM to never remove or handle the lifters with magnets as this may magnetise them and cause metal wear particles to adhere and cause engine damage pretty fast

But the theory of what he shows is very sound IMO. Old varnish or other deposits in the lifters could well cause the trouble and I like the idea of being able to avoid introducing new lifters into an already "broken in" engine/ valve train. And admittedly the cost aspect!

 

[JC220]

Just a thought here. But could I check the lifters in situ without pulling the cams etc?

Aka bar the engine over by hand until the cam lobe(s) are facing vertical and try compressing the lifters down with my thumbs. If they have a little spring and resistance = filled or partially filled lifter. This is good.

If any appear solid when pressed with my thumbs then these would be presumed to be the trouble lifter(s). Then order up the appropriate number of new lifters and target those ones first. Sound OK?

The 3.6 AMG engine timing would concern me. I recall there Is quite little info out there on how they timed them up. So before I would go pulling any cams id really need to satisfy myself of its cam markings. I know that could get messed up but hopefully not on my watch!

 

[Rouven036]

I remember this the other way around, soft lifters being problematic, stiff lifters are good. (cam lobes pointing straight away from the lifters)

 

[JC220]

I remember this the other way around, soft lifters being problematic, stiff lifters are good. (cam lobes pointing straight away from the lifters)

Hmmm yes I guess that can be true too. I was thinking that a collapsed lifter would have no compression to it but I guess that could be the opposite whereby it has no oil inside.

I'll try with a stethoscope tomorrow and see if I can pinpoint a particular cylinder at least

 

[gsxr]

I remember this the other way around, soft lifters being problematic, stiff lifters are good. (cam lobes pointing straight away from the lifters)

This is correct - soft lifters that compress too easily with your finger are "bad".

 

[a777fan]

Rouven, I thought the same thing about the magnet - not a good idea. The FSM mentions this somewhere, that magnetic tools should not be used to pull lifters out of the head. Same logic applies to the little bits inside.

V. Interesting! I have not heard this before, and in fact have been told to use a magnet in order to make sure that you aren't prying on things inside the head with the wrong/improper tools.

What is the recommended/proper technique? Small suction cups?

 

[gsxr]

Yup! Suction cups, per FSM...

https://www.500eboard.co/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2110.pdf

 

[JC220]

Update- 3rd startup today. That is the 3rd day I have started the E36 up in a row and let it warm up.

This time I let it run for 10 mins until fully up to temp (doesn't take it long these 3.6s run pretty hot!)

Then did a simulated "drive" held throttle at 2k rpm for 5 mins or so. Result!! Quiet again. Phew!

I can't let this car sit too long that is the lesson here! It needs to run fully up to temp at least once a month thats all there is to it. I'll do another oil change now too even though it hasn't turned a mile

 

[yao500e]

Ps the 3.6 AMG is notorious for valve lifter noise in general being described as sounding like diesels. But this is now really bad and sudden as a result of this car sitting for a long time without turning over or starting up.

Hello JC220.

is this true about 3.6 AMG M104? im on my 2nd C36. My first C36 was quiet and smooth. My 2nd car is starting to sound a bit "diesel".

I get reports from some C36 owners its normal. some say it not. Gerry here says M104 should all sound smoot. im inclined to believe Gerry.

What have you heard or know? thank you.

@JC220

 

[Ertech]

How hard is it to remove a camshaft to replace a lifter ?

 

[yao500e]

This is an older video of mine taken just after I did the transplant. You can hear the C36 characteristic lifter noise there.

However now it is really, really bad and I know it's a case of a lifter or two that happened to be left compressed are now not pumping up again.

this sounds just like my 3.6.
whew! looks like this is normal sounding.

Thank you @JC220

 

[R129 UK]

How hard is it to remove a camshaft to replace a lifter ?

That depends on a couple of things, mainly how competent you are under the bonnet which of course is essentially not quantifiable, entirely subjective and down to your own judgement.

In terms of the M119 specifically, the complexity will depend on which camshaft you want to remove.

The left cam (looking in the direction of travel) is the trickiest and slightly more so on later variants due to the power steering pump being right in front.

The remaining 3 (from memory) are largely similar.

This YouTuber has some content related to an M119 strip and rebuild which will give you a flavour of what is involved:

The Friendly Neighborhood Technician

Welcome to the official YouTube channel of The Friendly Neighborhood Technician. The Friendly Neighborhood Technician is a Master Certified Mercedes-Benz technician. Here you will find videos about project cars, vehicle and engine maintenance, engine work and rebuilding, general shenanigans...

www.youtube.com

There are some documents to follow which explain the process in written and graphical form which are also very useful although for my engine (M129.982) the details are a bit sketchy and need to be interpreted a little:

05 Engine, Camshaft and Valve Train - M119

If you decide to go ahead, start your own thread when you get stuck and someone will be along to advise.

 

[JC220]

this sounds just like my 3.6.
whew! looks like this is normal sounding.

Thank you @JC220

Yes the 3.6 has noisy lifters for sure! Which reminds me I must awake mine from its slumber this spring

 

[gsxr]

3.6 uses the same lifters as 3.2, right? Must be something with the cam profile causing the additional noise?

 

[Rouven036]

Yes, agree too. Would assume to cam lift or so.

 

[yao500e]

Yes the 3.6 has noisy lifters for sure! Which reminds me I must awake mine from its slumber this spring

get that Lovely C36 out for a spin!

 

[yao500e]

3.6 uses the same lifters as 3.2, right? Must be something with the cam profile causing the additional noise?

yes should definitely explore and consider this.

 

[JC220]

get that Lovely C36 out for a spin!

Well it's a long story Short version- some years back I purchased a C36 and cut it apart for it's running gear which I transplanted to a w124 saloon of mine. That is one of my far too many project cars awaiting completion

All original C36 wiring harness and ECUs transplanted too

 

[TerryA]

@JC220,
Joe, how many miles on that engine? It sounds brand new. Also I don’t here any tappet/lifter knock.

 

[JC220]

@JC220,
Joe, how many miles on that engine? It sounds brand new. Also I don’t here any tappet/lifter knock.

If I recall correctly the donor C36 had around 90k miles on it and a inch thick folder of full service history. The car was very rusty and at the time made sense for me to part out. I bought it for £1000 which was extremely cheap for a genuine C36 even in rusted condition! I sold the wheels and body kit for that same amount so essentially got all the other parts and engine for free.

I guess the same C36 nowadays would be worth fixing given the values they now fetch.