W210 E55 Estate Production Numbers

[gsxr]

Lots of miles... But I was speaking theoretically anyway, as I'm full up on supercharged 55 cars AND wagons for now (one of each -- meager needs). Thanks though.

Do tell! What year / color is your wagon?

Is that a concern with these, if properly maintained? We know that E500Es with 140k miles is not a big issue if the maintenance is there.

Mileage shouldn't be a major concern, but the price is awfully optimistic IMO at $29k for that odo reading.

 

[maw1124]

My wagon isn't a Benz -- it's the Black over Platinum/Black Audi that's on my profile page -- '04 Allroad 4.2L, V8, 5-valve, something like 360hp/315tq with APR tune and exhaust. This is a pretty fair write-up...http://www.epinions.com/review/auto_Make-2004_Audi_allroad_1/21655750/412673412740

Good for winters and activity with the raising and lowering suspension. There is no E55 with all wheel drive and that kind of ground clearance.

maw

 

[gsxr]

Interesting tid-bit though, for all you lovers of the M119 who swear the M113 is a cheap, redheaded invention of bean counters... The W210 E55 with the M113 engine is faster from 0 to 100km than both the W210 E50 and E60 models with the M119 engine (5.7s, vs 6.2s and 5.9s respectively; source: "AMG 45: The Story, The Cars").

The M113 is a good motor for sure. And the E55 is quicker than the E50. But, any test results where an E55 was quicker than an E60 are misleading... either the E60 wasn't running properly, or conditions were causing traction problems. I own a W210 E60 (RENNtech) and believe me, it scoots...

 

[maw1124]

But, any test results where an E55 was quicker than an E60 are misleading... either the E60 wasn't running properly, or conditions were causing traction problems. I own a W210 E60 (RENNtech) and believe me, it scoots...

Oh I believe you. That's why I found it interesting that AMG itself reported the E55 was faster than the E60. I also found it interesting that, again AMG itself said the SL73 was only .2s faster than the SL600s. Both of those reports went against what I would have thought. It's not like there was a huge weight difference in the engines. If anything, for example, I'd expect the SL73 engine to be lighter than the SL600, due to the extra boring.

Interesting note, Dave, I bought "AMG 45, The Story, The Cars" largely as part of my research into the SL600 when I was contemplating one, because I wanted to see what was different from the unobtanium SL73. Nothing but the block. Nada, zilch, nothing. I discovered all sorts of interesting tidbits (like the W210 E50 and E60 have the SL600 rear brake systems). What MB and AMG were doing with the W124, W140, W210 and R129 chassis cars between 1992 and 1997 was nothing short of fascinating. It's the kind of Franken-test-engineering only a true HWA gearhead could appreciate. But as Klink pointed out, it was near death secret to me until that book.

maw

 

[Klink]

Oh I believe you. That's why I found it interesting that AMG itself reported the E55 was faster than the E60. I also found it interesting that, again AMG itself said the SL73 was only .2s faster than the SL600s. Both of those reports went against what I would have thought. It's not like there was a huge weight difference in the engines. If anything, for example, I'd expect the SL73 engine to be lighter than the SL600, due to the extra boring.

Interesting note, Dave, I bought "AMG 45, The Story, The Cars" largely as part of my research into the SL600 when I was contemplating one, because I wanted to see what was different from the unobtanium SL73. Nothing but the block. Nada, zilch, nothing. I discovered all sorts of interesting tidbits (like the W210 E50 and E60 have the SL600 rear brake systems). What MB and AMG were doing with the W124, W140, W210 and R129 chassis cars between 1992 and 1997 was nothing short of fascinating. It's the kind of Franken-test-engineering only a true HWA gearhead could appreciate. But as Klink pointed out, it was near death secret to me until that book.

maw

Please tell us more about this book!

 

[maw1124]

Please tell us more about this book!

http://www.amazon.com/AMG-45-The-Story-Cars/dp/3768834948 I learned about it from the Private Lounge, bought it immediately in 2013. I was a year or so into my 500E, and also wanted to see how it stacked up to the AMG W124 cars. Another interesting tidbit, the AMG 500E 6.0 that they did with the M117 is faster than the one they did with the M119 (5.6s vs 5.9s).

Here's a snapshot on the SL73. Sorry I can't scan it -- it's a huge coffee table book, too big for my scanner. It appears they also "tweaked" the transmission, though they're not telling us how. Probably the same tweaks those of us who have "upgraded" our 500E transmissions have made.

If people find this picture acceptable, I'll take one on the AMG 500 E60 as well, which is their name for the 500E as tuned by AMG.

Cheers,

maw

 

[Melville]

I think in a few years people will be kicking themselves for not getting a W210 E55 at the prices they sell for now. Low price and currently not loved by collectors mean many will fall into disrepair. Then when they are "discovered", clean ones will be very rare.

 

[maw1124]

I think in a few years people will be kicking themselves for not getting a W210 E55 at the prices they sell for now. Low price and currently not loved by collectors mean many will fall into disrepair. Then when they are "discovered", clean ones will be very rare.

True. But remember those bodies were notorious for rust.

maw

 

[captruff]

The M113 is a good motor for sure. And the E55 is quicker than the E50. But, any test results where an E55 was quicker than an E60 are misleading... either the E60 wasn't running properly, or conditions were causing traction problems. I own a W210 E60 (RENNtech) and believe me, it scoots...

+1 I have driven several W210 M113 E55 cars and they are not nearly as quick as my E60 W210

jeff

 

[gerryvz]

I think in a few years people will be kicking themselves for not getting a W210 E55 at the prices they sell for now. Low price and currently not loved by collectors mean many will fall into disrepair. Then when they are "discovered", clean ones will be very rare.

The problem with the W210 E55s is that they are not "special" cars. And they made a lot of them. I don't think they are going to be nearly as collectable as other models. My other issue is that a lot of the E55s that I now see have been driven very hard and put away wet, so they are getting in many cases into advanced states of disrepair and deferred maintenance. They can take it, up to a point.

There will always be nice E55s out there due to the relatively large numbers sold in this country, and this is indeed an excellent time to buy said model for a real song, and yes they will begin to appreciate again in the future. I think they're going to bounce along at the bottom of the barrel for quite a while before they are "discovered" and start going up, though.

It's why my next purchase is going to be a CLK55 AMG convertible. It's a two-door and relatively few of them were made, so it's going to be MUCH more collectible than a 55 sedan or wagon.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[maw1124]

+1 I have driven several W210 M113 E55 cars and they are not nearly as quick as my E60 W210

jeff

And we know AMG has been know to sandbag their cars' true power. Even in AMG 45, for one car they list the 0-100km as "unknown." I was like, what the hell is that?!?! I think that's code for "we don't want to incriminate ourselves by telling you." Likely the same for the E60 (developed under their watch), not wanting to shame the E55 then being produced by officially under the umbrella of their largest investor and benefactor.

maw

 

[gsxr]

Oh I believe you. That's why I found it interesting that AMG itself reported the E55 was faster than the E60.

I suspect this is related to the sandbagging mentioned above. Get a sample of each car running properly at the same testing location / same day, and the 6.0L will always be quicker than the smaller siblings. Interestingly, the E50 (M119) test reports show the performance was impressive, very similar to the E55 (M113). See attached articles on the E50... I need to get some test reports on the E55. I've never seen a test report for the W210 E60.

AMG claims do not always match reality. It is likely the MB brass would not allow the new kid on the block (M113) to show a time slower than the old dinosaur (M119) and the published times were, uh, "adjusted" accordingly. My E60 can get to 60mph in 5 seconds flat up here at 2700' elevation (with drag radials / no wheelspin). About the 500E+M117 hybrid... I don't recall seeing proof that this car existed, but if it did, it's unlikely it was significantly quicker than an M119 of the same displacement with equivalent tuning work.

Also: Times from 0-60mph / 0-100kph are often misleading, due to traction issues and/or gearing. Times to 100-150mph are a lot better gauge of a car's true performance. And, tire technology is quite a bit improved today from 20 years ago. Makes it harder to generate an apples-to-apples comparison, unless you start timing from 30mph instead of zero!

 

[maw1124]

AMG claims do not always match reality. It is likely the MB brass would not allow the new kid on the block (M113) to show a time slower than the old dinosaur (M119) and the published times were, uh, "adjusted" accordingly. My E60 can get to 60mph in 5 seconds flat up here at 2700' elevation (with drag radials / no wheelspin). About the 500E+M117 hybrid... I don't recall seeing proof that this car existed, but if it did, it's unlikely it was significantly quicker than an M119 of the same displacement with equivalent tuning work.

I posted the only proof I have of it. It was only today that I noticed that one of the cars was a M119 and the other a M117. I tried to scan the pdf so you could see the numbers AMG claimed on each. Keep in mind, though, both of those 6.0 cars are in W124 chassis, not W210. I've seen nothing on an M117 AMG in a W210 chassis, at any displacement (5.0, 5.5 or 6.0). If they made it, it didn't make the 45th anniversary book.

maw

 

[Melville]

The problem with the W210 E55s is that they are not "special" cars. And they made a lot of them. I don't think they are going to be nearly as collectable as other models. My other issue is that a lot of the E55s that I now see have been driven very hard and put away wet, so they are getting in many cases into advanced states of disrepair and deferred maintenance. They can take it, up to a point.

Per wikipedia ( there were about 12,000 W210 E55s produced, with about 500 per year into North America. Wikipedia may not be the most reliable source, but it seems that while they are not super rare, they are in the same ballpark as E500Es. They may not have the pedigree of E500Es, and I think our cars are better (and will be worth more) than E55s, but I think E55s will find a place with enthusiasts and collectors. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have an E500E. And I agree that a CLK55 is cooler and will be more collectible than an E55 sedan (wagon is debatable). But I wouldn't kick an E55 out of my driveway. I also agree that most E55s have been driven really hard. Just yesterday I saw one in really rough condition in my neighborhood. However, that will just make the good ones more desirable.

 

[gsxr]

I posted the only proof I have of it. It was only today that I noticed that one of the cars was a M119 and the other a M117. I tried to scan the pdf so you could see the numbers AMG claimed on each. Keep in mind, though, both of those 6.0 cars are in W124 chassis, not W210. I've seen nothing on an M117 AMG in a W210 chassis, at any displacement (5.0, 5.5 or 6.0). If they made it, it didn't make the 45th anniversary book.

I wonder why AMG ever messed with an M117 in a 500E, unless a mechanic was bored for a few weeks! And I don't think anyone has ever put an M117 into a W210. Shame they didn't build more E60 W210's (especially wagons).

 

[alabbasi]

As Meville indicated, the W210 E55 production numbers were about the same as E500E's (few hundred more) but it's a newer so there are more around. As far as body mods, I'm not sure how important this is. I can see it being important on a W124 as the body was quite long in the tooth by the time the E500E's came out and it was never designed for a V8. The W210's were built with the V8. As far as flairs go, the 9.5x18 factory alloys fit quite comfortably so I don't think that it solves any problems.

My E55 is my daily driver and to me it's a great car. It's as fast as hell but very civilized, handles great yet very comfortable. A/C blows ice cold and will do 24mpg on a fast run. The only gripe I have about mine is that paint is starting to fail on some of the plastics but as I drive the car daily and park it outside. I can't really fault MB that the paint only lasted 13 years. It's not an investment, it's not my fastest car and it's not my nicest car but it is a heck of a great daily driver and it has a pretty good story.

Regarding investment values of E55 or CLK55, they're both worthless at the moment and not likely go up in any way to justify calling them investments. It would probably be wise to spend money on an air cooled 911 or E-type Jaguar (or 401k) if investment is what you want.

Here's a recent review by Car and Driver magazine listing it as one of the most fun cars that you can buy for under $25k today.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/most-fun-for-25000-19992002-mercedes-benz-e55-amg-page-7

Here's another article that pitches one against an E39 M5 and a Jaguar XJR

http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...-benz-e55-amg-2000-jaguar-xjr-comparison-test

 

[maw1124]

I wonder why AMG ever messed with an M117 in a 500E, unless a mechanic was bored for a few weeks! And I don't think anyone has ever put an M117 into a W210. Shame they didn't build more E60 W210's (especially wagons).

The writeup partially explains why -- the M117 AMG 6.0 was already completed in Affalterbach by the time MB introduced the M119 in October 1990 in Paris. And this is where that legendary AMG sandbagging comes in.

If you look at what was in the book, the writeup doesn't correspond with the chart. The chart says 5.6s for the M117 and 5.9s for the M119, whereas the writeup says 4.8s for M117 and 5.2s for the M119. Either way, the M117 was faster. The writeup also says both were electronically limited to 250km/hr, whereas the chart says the M117 could do over 300km/hr, depending on the gear ratio. So there's something interesting going on there, and I think it has to do with either: (a) the M117 AMG camshaft supported higher RPM; (b) the M119 bore was not 100mm as the chart (and writeup) indicates; or (c) catalytic converters limited the later M119 for emissions purposes, whereas the M117 wasn't so hampered (the chart so indicates). I think it's likely all three -- definitely (a) and (c), and I don't have the data to confirm (b). We know that putting a different camshaft in the M117 and the M119 produces noticeable results. And we know that opening up the exhaust side opens up the top end in both engines.

Both the chart and writeup agree the M117 had higher RPM, and we know it wasn't as emissions hampered as the M119, which would explain more power (output per liter and torque), and a faster 0-100km time (4.8s). That's all I can see, Dave. As you can see, AMG isn't exactly forthcoming, even when they're "bragging." It certainly supports more aggressive cams and cat deletes in M119 applications, even if real world experience hasn't yet borne this out.

The real shame is that very little of this stuff made North American shores -- more emissions hampering.

maw

 

[maw1124]

As Meville indicated, the W210 E55 production numbers were about the same as E500E's (few hundred more) but it's a newer so there are more around.

I don't think that's true Al, at least not for USA. My numbers indicate about 4,000 W210 E55s for USA, vis-a-vis around 1500 E500Es for all of North America. So the MB-Porsche collaboration is at least twice as rare on this side of the Atlantic. See attached.

I agree with the rest of what you say, about it being a daily and not as fast, luxurious or exotic as its stable mates, but still one helluva car. I feel the same about the lowly Audi Allroad 4.2 in my stable. Sure it's no 500E, M3 or S55k but it beats hell out of most anything else it sees in daily grocery / firewood / landscape hauling, soccer coaching or Cub Scouting duty.

Cheers,

maw

 

[alabbasi]

I agree with the rest of what you say, about it being a daily and not as fast,

Maw, thanks, I'm talking strictly production numbers which are about 10500 for E500E vs ~ 12000 for the W210 E55. There may certainly be many more in the US but even at 4000, this is not a high volume car. In any case, low volume is not the key differentiator. Porsche made 23,000 examples of the 930 and we can all agree that it's special and has made a better investment.

In my experience, once these old German cars become collectible, the people who pay real money for them are outside the US. They tend to buy when the local cars become rot boxes. This was the fate of my 350SLC, 6.9 and a couple of other cars.

I want to make something clear however; while the E55 is not as fast as my fastest car, I'm pretty sure it's quicker then an E500E. Same weight, more engine, more hp, more torque more gears, more technology.
It does it in a civilized way but if I wanted seat of pants, my old MGB was faster at 60mph then anything i've ever owned.

 

[gsxr]

If you look at what was in the book, the writeup doesn't correspond with the chart. The chart says 5.6s for the M117 and 5.9s for the M119, whereas the writeup says 4.8s for M117 and 5.2s for the M119. Either way, the M117 was faster. The writeup also says both were electronically limited to 250km/hr, whereas the chart says the M117 could do over 300km/hr, depending on the gear ratio. So there's something interesting going on there, and I think it has to do with either: (a) the M117 AMG camshaft supported higher RPM; (b) the M119 bore was not 100mm as the chart (and writeup) indicates; or (c) catalytic converters limited the later M119 for emissions purposes, whereas the M117 wasn't so hampered (the chart so indicates). I think it's likely all three -- definitely (a) and (c), and I don't have the data to confirm (b). We know that putting a different camshaft in the M117 and the M119 produces noticeable results. And we know that opening up the exhaust side opens up the top end in both engines.

Sounds like this was a one-off, super-tuned M117 build. Possibly related to the ultra-rare Motronic M117 DOHC with a claimed 400hp. Makes you wonder what other mods were made to the chassis to achieve the claimed numbers!

Both the chart and writeup agree the M117 had higher RPM, and we know it wasn't as emissions hampered as the M119, which would explain more power (output per liter and torque), and a faster 0-100km time (4.8s). That's all I can see, Dave. As you can see, AMG isn't exactly forthcoming, even when they're "bragging." It certainly supports more aggressive cams and cat deletes in M119 applications, even if real world experience hasn't yet borne this out.

Yeah, it's frustrating that AMG wouldn't fess up to what they were doing, especially after two decades have gone by. I agree btw, there is definitely power left in the M119 via camshafts, the problem is obtaining camshafts and performing other necessary mods to make them work (i.e., porting/polishing, different springs, machining valve pockets, etc etc). Or just the cost... AMG E50 cams alone, if still available, were ~$5k/set. (!!!!!)

 

[gerryvz]

Please tell us more about this book!

There's a whole thread about it right here: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3057

 

[Bryan Wells]

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...ll/1095928306?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

really torn here with this W124 E320 wagon that is selling for basically nothing here in my hometown. Should I buy this as a project car? ive always really liked the W124 wagons. Not too sure if this is a steal or not worth the time and money it would cost to get it running well. Thoughts? The rims and a few other cosmetic things would be changed immediately.

 

[Bryan Wells]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Be...tr=true&hash=item43e18feb18&item=291547114264

with dreams of making it like this one thats selling on eBay right now. (photo attached below)

My apologies for derailing this thread. I need your expert opinions here guys!

 

[Maui]

You will not regret owning / driving this beauty! Please keep in mind that you are not buying 2015 Honda Civic with warranty, this car is 25 years old and although, most of the components were updated / upgraded, it is still a vintage BMW

Actually, it's a 21 year old Mercedes-Benz but who's counting.

 

[Maui]

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...ll/1095928306?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

really torn here with this W124 E320 wagon that is selling for basically nothing here in my hometown. Should I buy this as a project car? ive always really liked the W124 wagons. Not too sure if this is a steal or not worth the time and money it would cost to get it running well. Thoughts? The rims and a few other cosmetic things would be changed immediately

The ad claims the car has 3.6l engine and leather interior. I can't speak the engine because I can't tell from the pictures, but the interior is Mtex. I would question the seller's knowledge of the car, but if it were in my home town I would definitely go take a look see.

 

[gsxr]

with dreams of making it like this one thats selling on eBay right now.

My apologies for derailing this thread. I need your expert opinions here guys!

My only comment would be that if you want to do a widebody wagon, I'd do it right, with a full 500E front end (bumpers, fenders, side skirts, moulding, etc)... and if possible the rear fenders from a 500E as well. This won't be cheap though. The fender flares on the eBay wagon just don't look right to my eyes, but that's just me...

 

[Bryan Wells]

agreed the flares on the ebay wagon dont look right at all. I would be much more into getting the 500E fenders and bumpers and doing it right.

 

[gsxr]

Jeff is parting a 500E at the moment and he should have the rear fenders available. I've got a pair of fronts. The bumper may be difficult to find used...

 

[KarlC]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Be...tr=true&hash=item43e18feb18&item=291547114264

with dreams of making it like this one thats selling on eBay right now. (photo attached below)

My apologies for derailing this thread. I need your expert opinions here guys!

the ebay add says..... One of only a few in the world - w124 wagon with wide body style 500e tribute!


What is 500E on this wagon ?

 

[Glen]

the ebay add says..... One of only a few in the world - w124 wagon with wide body style 500e tribute!


What is 500E on this wagon ?

Wheel center caps?

 

[nocfn]

its a decal "tribute" LOL

 

[nocfn]

My only comment would be that if you want to do a widebody wagon, I'd do it right, with a full 500E front end (bumpers, fenders, side skirts, moulding, etc)... and if possible the rear fenders from a 500E as well. This won't be cheap though. The fender flares on the eBay wagon just don't look right to my eyes, but that's just me...

I have some shop rags hanging on the fenders I removed from someone else's idea on that....

 

[Bryan Wells]

the decals and fender flares take this wagon down a few notches in my books. Overall I do love the lowered wide W124 wagons a lot.

 

[captruff]

the decals and fender flares take this wagon down a few notches in my books. Overall I do love the lowered wide W124 wagons a lot.

My wagon is lowered on H&R springs and #1 pads. Not low enough for some, but this works for me





Jeff

 

[Maui]

My wagon is lowered on H&R springs and #1 pads. Not low enough for some, but this works for me





Jeff

Pure wagon porn.

 

[500AMM]

My wagon is lowered on H&R springs and #1 pads. Not low enough for some, but this works for me


Jeff

My only comment would be that if you want to do a widebody wagon, I'd do it right, with a full 500E front end (bumpers, fenders, side skirts, moulding, etc)... and if possible the rear fenders from a 500E as well. This won't be cheap though. The fender flares on the eBay wagon just don't look right to my eyes, but that's just me...

Yes, that is the real conversion, but + a custom .036 rear fender, where the center section from the wagon bumper is spliced into the .036 bumper. After close to 10 years into the .036 game, I have still seen only one complete "500 TE" optical conversion, that is a 220TE here in Norway. It's the black one on the enclosed image. A bit too much exhaust for me (..and hitch cut-out..) however, the rear bumper and fenders are correctly fitted. That car was very well built and has won a number of 1.prizes on car shows around in Europe. I haven't seen it for years, so I don't know its status in present moment.

My favorite 500TE would be a wagon like Jeff's car, that color combo, tinted windows and Carlssons 2/6 like those on the white one, that would be a perfect 500TE - just awesome IMO!

 

[Maui]

I love the rear spoiler on the Norway wagon. I'd like to know where to find one.