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DRIVESHAFT VIBRATION
- Thread starter r44raven
- Start date
Hello All - I've just been to the mechanic, and - to my surprise, I found out that the following parts were badly worn or cracked or generally non-functional and needing replacement. (Not mentioning any names, this #$% should have been done/checked already by more than one 'expert')
Rear flex disc (cracking)
Diff mounts (very bad)
Rear subframe mounts (one very bad, other going)
Rear multi-link arms
Exhaust rubbers (wrong type - inches too long) (nb the exhaust is vibrating from low speeds on the ramp)
Link Rod from self-levelling suspension (stiff/rusted up)
What effect do you think all of this has on my persistent vibration problems? (Terry will check my half-shafts when doing the work)
Rear flex disc (cracking)
Diff mounts (very bad)
Rear subframe mounts (one very bad, other going)
Rear multi-link arms
Exhaust rubbers (wrong type - inches too long) (nb the exhaust is vibrating from low speeds on the ramp)
Link Rod from self-levelling suspension (stiff/rusted up)
What effect do you think all of this has on my persistent vibration problems? (Terry will check my half-shafts when doing the work)
Comments below.
This is very unlikely to be causing the issue, unless the disc is SEVERELY damaged. IIRC, Klink has stated that a few hairline cracks are generally nothing to worry about. In some cases, flex disc replacement can actually cause vibration, as the propeller shaft and both discs are balanced as a unit from the factory, and changing them can affect that balance.
Really? I've never seen V8 diff mounts in very bad condition. "Very bad" means, you can push the diff around by hand and it will move around with visible play at the mounts. If that sloppy, yes, it could be a possible cause.
I'll eat my hat if this is causing the vibration. I've seen cars with all four subframe mounts totally shot and the car drove & handled normally, and was no different with 4 new mounts. A couple of my .034's have collapsed rear mounts, they are fine at 100mph. I just haven't had time to get around to replacing the rear subframe mounts on those cars yet.
See above, the suspension arm rubber bushings would have to be in truly terrible condition to cause significant vibration.
This wouldn't cause the symptoms you describe, i.e. steering wheel shake. Just a bummer that previous experts didn't point this out before.
This may affect the rear suspension level / ride height, but would not cause vibration at speed.
GSX thanks very much. As I suspected. One mechanic says those things are OK, (i.e. not in critical condition and not related to vibration) the other says, ooh they look cracked, shot, stuck.. it may not affect the vibration but we should do it anyway as we've already refreshed the front..
It's not the suspension, nor the wheels nor tyres. It's not the alignment, it's not the driveshaft and now it's not the engine... I'm seeing a gearbox guy today who will test drive, I'll let you know but we're really running out of ideas.. The only thing in the driveline not yet checked are the half-shafts and they appear solid when checked by hand.. There have been some oversights by the mechanics, so maybe it would be good to go over the brakes and hubs again, but the tyres have been balanced on the car and nothing hugely untoward showed up there... same for the half-shafts I suppose?
It's not the suspension, nor the wheels nor tyres. It's not the alignment, it's not the driveshaft and now it's not the engine... I'm seeing a gearbox guy today who will test drive, I'll let you know but we're really running out of ideas.. The only thing in the driveline not yet checked are the half-shafts and they appear solid when checked by hand.. There have been some oversights by the mechanics, so maybe it would be good to go over the brakes and hubs again, but the tyres have been balanced on the car and nothing hugely untoward showed up there... same for the half-shafts I suppose?
This is normal... the steering box has noticeably play almost anywhere outside of the center position (should be zero play when centered).
It's possible that a number of small items each slightly worn could add up to cause the overall problem, but it's unlikely. And it would be nice to completely rebuild the rear subframe with all new parts, if they are all old / original from 1994, but don't expect that to magically cure the vibration. It might... but I have a funny feeling it won't.
I'm really short on ideas too. Maybe ship the car to Klink in Alabama or Jono in Hotlanta, and turn them loose on it for a while?
Regarding thay front end shimmy on R129 or W124 500E/E500, I came to the conclusion it's 99% tires and nothing else. Just get the newest tires possible and you will be done with it. If not, they are likely not new enough.
I've been chasing vibration on 37,000km R129 and tires cured it to an unnoticable level, but it's not possible to eliminate it completely. It's within chassis/front end design, sadly.
I had very bad shaking on 500E and the amplitude was changing if I ran different sets of wheels.
Moreover! we had a big debate of whether 0.2 mm play can cause the vibration, lol. It's funny, that 500E has 66.4 mm hub diameter, unlike later 66.5 hubs, so 500E needs 66.5mm center bore wheels instead of 66.6 mm bore that worked later on. Sounds wacky, but it's true, I couldn't put 66.5 mm wheels on 66.5 mm hubs when I tried to change wheels between cars. And so, the debate, can we gain the 0.02 mm somehow? I was asked. "Well, we can wrap around the hub some scotch band?? but that's ridiculous and should not change anything". However! Despite me doing all that under pressure, lol, I admit it did reduce the front end vibration to about 30% less. Which is though funny looking when you wrap around a transparent scotch band around the hub, but effective.
I believe, new tires should get it to a minor level.
FYI, the car had 170,000 km. I adjusted front bearings, but made no sense, maybe they should have been changed as well.
I've been chasing vibration on 37,000km R129 and tires cured it to an unnoticable level, but it's not possible to eliminate it completely. It's within chassis/front end design, sadly.
I had very bad shaking on 500E and the amplitude was changing if I ran different sets of wheels.
Moreover! we had a big debate of whether 0.2 mm play can cause the vibration, lol. It's funny, that 500E has 66.4 mm hub diameter, unlike later 66.5 hubs, so 500E needs 66.5mm center bore wheels instead of 66.6 mm bore that worked later on. Sounds wacky, but it's true, I couldn't put 66.5 mm wheels on 66.5 mm hubs when I tried to change wheels between cars. And so, the debate, can we gain the 0.02 mm somehow? I was asked. "Well, we can wrap around the hub some scotch band?? but that's ridiculous and should not change anything". However! Despite me doing all that under pressure, lol, I admit it did reduce the front end vibration to about 30% less. Which is though funny looking when you wrap around a transparent scotch band around the hub, but effective.
I believe, new tires should get it to a minor level.
FYI, the car had 170,000 km. I adjusted front bearings, but made no sense, maybe they should have been changed as well.
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Same here. Makes me wonder if either the hub, and/or a particular set of wheels, was either out of spec or was worn. 0.1mm is tiny! As a reference, spark plug gap is 0.8mm.
Also IIRC, the MB spec for wheel+tire runout combined is 2.0mm?
Hello - I need to update you...
So, I got all that work done
- Rear flex disc
- diff mounts
- correct 2.85 diff
- rear subframe mounts
- rear multi-link arms
- link rod
- exhaust suspension rubbers
- rebuild steering box
As predicted, these things didn't make any difference, save that the vibration was more acute, and was hitting at various speeds above 80km/h. So it was there at 80/100/110/120/130/140 up to 160 through seat and wheel and I really thought this was the end.
The steering did feel a little sharper and lighter (if that makes sense), as the box was leaking before, and it was good to have the right diff on it as the other one whined a bit, but the only improvement to the vibration was that it wasn't happening any more at low speeds 0-70km/h. I put this down to the exhaust suspension rubbers.
So I decided in a moment of illogic to have the wheels road force balanced again. After having been told on the phone that the shop couldn't reduce the tolerances, I went ahead anyway. One wheel was 35g out, another 20g but none of the tyres needed to be turned on the wheel, so I wasn't hopeful.
But unbelievably all the high-speed vibration was gone.
The low speed vibration is gone because of the exhaust rubbers. (i think)
There is still in my view a problem somewhere in the driveline. I can feel it if I dial into it at 115km/h, it's also there at 90km/h-ish. The difference now is that all that 80-120km/h vibration is now so mild that it seems to melt into the variety of road surfaces and it all becomes almost undetectable.
The upshot of all this is that I have now been able to enjoy the car properly (on its $10,000 refreshed suspension). I have been very very picky about the vibration and it has now dropped to such a low level that I can ignore it, as it's not really there most of the time and I'm telling myself now that a complex 25 year old car will have something and it's not fatal.
So I'm actually so so happy. What I'm going to do now (with less urgency) is show it to a guy who's quite local who is in the business of restoring old cars, mainly mercs, and who loves the E500. He can test it on some good local roads and maybe he'll have an idea.
After that, I'll bring it back to vibration free and see if they can detect where the vibration might be coming from, but for the first time ever it's not a critical situation.
I would like to thank everyone on the forum for all their support and time and advice - I'll keep you posted.
So, I got all that work done
- Rear flex disc
- diff mounts
- correct 2.85 diff
- rear subframe mounts
- rear multi-link arms
- link rod
- exhaust suspension rubbers
- rebuild steering box
As predicted, these things didn't make any difference, save that the vibration was more acute, and was hitting at various speeds above 80km/h. So it was there at 80/100/110/120/130/140 up to 160 through seat and wheel and I really thought this was the end.
The steering did feel a little sharper and lighter (if that makes sense), as the box was leaking before, and it was good to have the right diff on it as the other one whined a bit, but the only improvement to the vibration was that it wasn't happening any more at low speeds 0-70km/h. I put this down to the exhaust suspension rubbers.
So I decided in a moment of illogic to have the wheels road force balanced again. After having been told on the phone that the shop couldn't reduce the tolerances, I went ahead anyway. One wheel was 35g out, another 20g but none of the tyres needed to be turned on the wheel, so I wasn't hopeful.
But unbelievably all the high-speed vibration was gone.
The low speed vibration is gone because of the exhaust rubbers. (i think)
There is still in my view a problem somewhere in the driveline. I can feel it if I dial into it at 115km/h, it's also there at 90km/h-ish. The difference now is that all that 80-120km/h vibration is now so mild that it seems to melt into the variety of road surfaces and it all becomes almost undetectable.
The upshot of all this is that I have now been able to enjoy the car properly (on its $10,000 refreshed suspension). I have been very very picky about the vibration and it has now dropped to such a low level that I can ignore it, as it's not really there most of the time and I'm telling myself now that a complex 25 year old car will have something and it's not fatal.
So I'm actually so so happy. What I'm going to do now (with less urgency) is show it to a guy who's quite local who is in the business of restoring old cars, mainly mercs, and who loves the E500. He can test it on some good local roads and maybe he'll have an idea.
After that, I'll bring it back to vibration free and see if they can detect where the vibration might be coming from, but for the first time ever it's not a critical situation.
I would like to thank everyone on the forum for all their support and time and advice - I'll keep you posted.
I still feel strongly that my car is way too sensitive to wheel-balance and in that sense nothing has really changed. The underlying cause of the vibration is super elusive, and just to comment on the tyre thing - I've had 3 sets of brand new tyres on the car, one on the 17" evo wheels and Michelins + winter tyres on the 16" wheels and it hasn't made a difference.
Its over a year now since I started this thread, because if you recall I had a very elusive vibration problem - and I have followed the highs and lows of Ian's experiences with great interest.
With my car, eventually we tracked it down to two main sources - the propshaft, and the wheels/tyres. The former was balanced, which led to a great improvement, and after the latter were subject to some Road Force Balancing, my car is now 99% vibration free. I'm really pleased, Ian, that at last you've arrived at the same point - albeit at some not inconsiderable cost! Well done for persisting!
With my car, eventually we tracked it down to two main sources - the propshaft, and the wheels/tyres. The former was balanced, which led to a great improvement, and after the latter were subject to some Road Force Balancing, my car is now 99% vibration free. I'm really pleased, Ian, that at last you've arrived at the same point - albeit at some not inconsiderable cost! Well done for persisting!
Glad to hear you made some progress!
One more long shot to consider... I learned the hard way on a different MB that if the front toe adjustment is out of spec, it can cause a mild vibration that feels like a wheel out of balance. I assume an alignment was performed after the recent suspension work, but if so, ask if they used the spreader bar when setting toe (or at least know what you are talking about).
Also, I have noticed all my 124's are very, very sensitive to wheel/tire imbalance and careful RoadForce balancing is required. I also mark the location of each wheel weight after balancing, so I can check if a weight has spit off at speed.
One more long shot to consider... I learned the hard way on a different MB that if the front toe adjustment is out of spec, it can cause a mild vibration that feels like a wheel out of balance. I assume an alignment was performed after the recent suspension work, but if so, ask if they used the spreader bar when setting toe (or at least know what you are talking about).
Also, I have noticed all my 124's are very, very sensitive to wheel/tire imbalance and careful RoadForce balancing is required. I also mark the location of each wheel weight after balancing, so I can check if a weight has spit off at speed.
For passenger car tires, the RoadForce machine uses an arbitrary number of ~26 lbs force as the acceptable limit. Lower numbers are better. The tire shop can move the tire in 90° increments around the rim to attempt to get lower numbers, but this is time consuming and they often don't want to bother, especially if the number is within spec (say, low 20's). Sometimes you can get a "defective" new tire that refuses to balance well.
This all assumes the wheel is straight & true, preferably better than 0.50mm both radially & laterally.
This all assumes the wheel is straight & true, preferably better than 0.50mm both radially & laterally.
Some how it seems to me that Mercedes has a vibration issue once they are getting older.
I have various vibrations in all of my 4 cars. The CL was almost Vibration-Free when i bought it in 2013, and no it has vibration from the driveshaft.
I wonder: Old BMWs i knew had no vibration, old Audis had no vibrations, but every older Mercedes i owned or was co-driving had vibration that werein most cases chased forever, without any real remedy...
I have various vibrations in all of my 4 cars. The CL was almost Vibration-Free when i bought it in 2013, and no it has vibration from the driveshaft.
I wonder: Old BMWs i knew had no vibration, old Audis had no vibrations, but every older Mercedes i owned or was co-driving had vibration that werein most cases chased forever, without any real remedy...
I have minor to moderate vibration issues on a few different cars, both 124 and 210. I've been able to rule out wheels/tires by using a reference set that are Road Force balanced near perfection, that are absolutely vibration-free on a different car... but on the couple with issues, the vibration remains regardless of wheels/tires. On the problem cars, I'm reasonably certain it's something between the transmission output and the rear wheel hubs, but I've never been able to pinpoint it. None vibrate bad enough that I've been willing to throw a ton of time and $$$ at it. On a rough road you can't even tell, but on a really smooth road, grrrr...
GSXR that's it exactly. Do you think it can have any connection to a rough idle? Because my idle is lumpy when hot in P/N, becomes fine in D. In neutral I can increase the revs to let's say 1000 - it's ok; to 1500 the lumpiness comes back, which makes me think it's not in the idle... it's there at 2000 as well - and the frequency of the irregularity is the same at idle, 1500, 2000 etc...
Lumpy idle is often related to old motor mounts (or, non-OEM mounts)... and possibly, a narrow spark plug gap. If your plugs aren't gapped to 1.0mm, give that a try, it's free. Since you notice the vibration with the car not moving, at 1500-2000rpm, I'd suspect the engine mounts. How old are they, and are they OE or OEM Boge mounts?
Lower-mile car value is a voltaile topic. Just because a car has low miles doesn't mean it wasn't driven hard for those low miles. Collectors sure like to buy low odometer readings, especially if the cosmetics are pretty.
Lower-mile car value is a voltaile topic. Just because a car has low miles doesn't mean it wasn't driven hard for those low miles. Collectors sure like to buy low odometer readings, especially if the cosmetics are pretty.
Echoing the sentiment that my 500E is very sensitive to unbalanced wheels/tires too. One got knocked out of spec when a hotel valet damaged my wheel. Fixing the wheel shaved some material away. That wheel caused vibration until I could get it rebalanced, only at 80mph. Not 70, not 90. People thought I was crazy for focusing on it. Passengers noticed nothing. It drove me nuts. The 55 is that way too. When all is well, it tracks straight and smooth no matter how fast you want to go. The faster you go, the straighter and smoother it tracks. Let a tire wear the slightest bit out of wack, and it's a different car, not for the better.
I'm glad you got this sorted out. Good on you!! We should have the IanAtkins persistence award. You'll go down in history like John Galt.
Cheers,
maw
I'm glad you got this sorted out. Good on you!! We should have the IanAtkins persistence award. You'll go down in history like John Galt.
Cheers,
maw
Thanks, but it's not quite sorted yet - although up to GSXR and Christian_K, yeah - I can live with it... I wish I could get it fixed though. The motor mounts are new-ish like a year or two old, and OEM... I'll look at the spark plugs. There's no vibration over 120km/h...
I'm sure you've been disappointed that nobody has asked, "Who is John Galt?"
Recent post on BW with a lot of good info:
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w1...-issue-getting-better-but-3.html#post17814680
Scroll to #68 if the link doesn't take you there directly.
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w1...-issue-getting-better-but-3.html#post17814680
Scroll to #68 if the link doesn't take you there directly.
Thanks for all the positive comments. Just a couple of happy observations. Firstly, my vibration journey has forced me to rebuild, renovate the entire suspension from front to rear, with the drivetrain bearing, flex discs etc en route - so as far as possible I believe (and belief is a big part of it all) that the car is running and riding as well as it ever did in its youth; Secondly, a little change that I was nervous of making (because I didn't want my belief threatened) was to put on the 17" evo 2s, turned out to prove that the vibration was fixed, because it's now all about sensitivity to road surfaces, and the greatest pleasure of driving a unique all-time great.
Could you please clarify whether you vibration issues has been completely fixed or not? Thanks for a great thread, sharing your story. Really, thank you
I am am having a similar vibration at the rear as well. It is not tires they are new and stock size Continentals. We just reinstalled new stock suspension with new self leveling equipment. My car has about 88K miles on it and is dead stock now. Car has never been in accident never painted & always garaged.
The low level ruble starts are around 50 MPH and is in the seat not the steering wheel.
Our first step will be to replace the center bearing and the end connectors, is this best place to start? My car is in LA... Maybe it's the diff? My mechanic who is quite skilled has not found anything he can see anything wrong with center bearing or end connectors
Think I may start a new thread so I do not annoy everyone here!
Thanks
The low level ruble starts are around 50 MPH and is in the seat not the steering wheel.
Our first step will be to replace the center bearing and the end connectors, is this best place to start? My car is in LA... Maybe it's the diff? My mechanic who is quite skilled has not found anything he can see anything wrong with center bearing or end connectors
Think I may start a new thread so I do not annoy everyone here!
Thanks
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@thecarshrink, in my case - vibration through seat, not steering - was fixed with a new driveshaft bearing. If you want to do a proper job, go through this thread. It mentions other parts to replace at the same time, such as bearing carrier and exhaust hangers. Do check that part numbers are good for 500E, as my car is a 400E. Many are the same, but some may not be. If you don't have an EPC (electronic parts catalog), which is the only accurate source for part numbers, ask here and people will help
Drive shaft center support bearing part # question | Transmission and Driveline
FCPeuro is telling me that drive shaft center support bearing part # is A0089814325 DOESN'T match my VIN and that actual correct part # is A 00 398 123 25 . BUT because A0089814325 supersedes A 00 398 123 25 , I should use A0089814325.... I called MB dealer and parts guy says A0089814325 is...
www.500eboard.co
It seems that when this driveline vibration occurs, all the components LOOK fine. But to date, nobody has pinpointed a particular item that is the root cause of many/most cases. Ruling out wheels/tires is a good start, along with suspension/steering items, and alignment.
A differential problem is very, very unlikely. Center support is worth a try, but moderately expensive... have to drop the exhaust to access it, support donut is OE only and ~$100, plus bearing / dust boot / labor. I've always suspected a driveshaft balance issue, but there are very few shops capable of balancing a 2-piece shaft with the flex discs attached. One of my cars with 190k+ has the "thrumming" vibration you describe, I replaced the driveshaft with a spare (and installed new center support+bearing AND new flex discs), no significant change. I haven't had time to mess with it further.
The recent discovery of worn half-shaft CV joints is very interesting, but it would seem odd to have that problem on a car with only 88kmi. And, based on information shared on this forum, I don't know if it can be diagnosed without removing the shafts (PITA couple of hours), or gambling on replacing/rebuilding them. I'll probably try that next on my car when I have time.
Thanks guys for all the info. I am going to have my mechanic pull the exhaust and do most of the suggestions as to just get it done while the car is open. I would rather not have to go back an pull it apart twice. I will let you know how far we go. I am a maniac when it comes to vibrations and making the car correct. Need to have my autobahn cruiser back as it should be!
Been busy and not that active on here as the car jhas been sleeping. The vibration was fixed and it was not the dif, a couple of worn items and a good drive hsaft balance and we are good to go. Car is really a gem now. Of course I had to do the wiring harness. Comes with the teritory.
Best to all of you.
Best to all of you.
I don't fully remeber but aI believe it was the part where the center shafts meet. I will ask my guy.
@IanAtkins -
Were you able to get this "almost undetectable" vibration from 80-120km/h fixed? I think I have a similar, if not the same thing. 2nd order Driveshaft-related vibration (from NVH app using accelerometers to test)...... see below.
Note my wheels are true, I had the (new michelin) tires roadforce balanced 3x, RMAed on tire, measured the motor mounts clearance and it was ok (24.xmm), replaced the trans mount, replaced flex discs and center support bearing 9K miles ago, etc etc...
Attachments
@gsxr did you find the source of this? I don't have thrumming, I have faint micro-shakes at speed (see above post measuring average 0.038G amplitude, 2nd order driveshaft vibration)....Driveshaft vibrations tend to be felt in the middle of the car, what MB calls "thrumming" in English. These tend to appear near freeway speeds and may never go away at higher speeds, just change frequency or intensity. The fun part is when you have new flex discs and new center support, and new engine/trans mounts, new subframe mounts, new subframe links, RoadForced wheels/tires, and still have the driveline thrumming. I've been chasing that on my one car for a couple of years and still haven't cured it.
Thanks.
The car in question has been driven very little over the past few years. And, with new wheels/tires mounted, the vibration seemed completely gone when driven over the summer. I'm not convinced it is fixed, as the vibration was oscillating, what I believe MB FSM calls "thrumming". It may come back, I'll find out when the car gets more miles racked up.
On a related note, I had a similar issue with my W210 when swapping the diff, and the thrumming improved with the existing shim(s) removed. I don't think that car ever had the vibration eliminated 100% but it was reduced enough that I lost interest in chasing it. I did buy a new driveshaft center support but never got around to installing it.
Out of curiosity, is the rear suspension / rear subframe / diff attachment design on the w210 similar to that on the w124?The car in question has been driven very little over the past few years. And, with new wheels/tires mounted, the vibration seemed completely gone when driven over the summer. I'm not convinced it is fixed, as the vibration was oscillating, what I believe MB FSM calls "thrumming". It may come back, I'll find out when the car gets more miles racked up.
On a related note, I had a similar issue with my W210 when swapping the diff, and the thrumming improved with the existing shim(s) removed. I don't think that car ever had the vibration eliminated 100% but it was reduced enough that I lost interest in chasing it. I did buy a new driveshaft center support but never got around to installing it.
It is VERY similar, but not identical. The 5 links are identical IIRC but the subframe mounts are different sizes and not interchangeable. The rear diff mounts are also not the same. But otherwise, yup, same basic design with the front of the diff shimmed during manufacturing.
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