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group buy - Wavetrac differentials for w124
- Thread starter Jackasic
- Start date
I did a bit of searching trying to find out what noise people were complaining about. Sounds to me like gear whine, which is a setup/intallation issue, NOT an issue with the diff itself... and the Quaife should be no more or less noisy than Wavetrac, or the stock OE diffs, for that matter. The only time you'd hear anything else would be with one wheel unloaded and spinning, with the Quaife, you hear a slight "whirring" noise when this happens. The WaveTrac design is different, and may not have the same result.
Regardless, noise should be a non-issue. But this does highlight the need to make SURE the diff is installed by a competent shop that knows how to properly measure (and adjust!) bearing preload and backlash on Meredes differentials. This requires a shim assortment, some shims are NLA from MB, custom shims may have to be fabricated. I've managed to build three different LSD's using factory available shims and had zero noise with them. YMMV, etc.
Regardless, noise should be a non-issue. But this does highlight the need to make SURE the diff is installed by a competent shop that knows how to properly measure (and adjust!) bearing preload and backlash on Meredes differentials. This requires a shim assortment, some shims are NLA from MB, custom shims may have to be fabricated. I've managed to build three different LSD's using factory available shims and had zero noise with them. YMMV, etc.
Many thanks for checking , Dave!I did a bit of searching trying to find out what noise people were complaining about. Sounds to me like gear whine, which is a setup/intallation issue, NOT an issue with the diff itself... and the Quaife should be no more or less noisy than Wavetrac, or the stock OE diffs, for that matter. The only time you'd hear anything else would be with one wheel unloaded and spinning, with the Quaife, you hear a slight "whirring" noise when this happens. The WaveTrac design is different, and may not have the same result.
Regardless, noise should be a non-issue. But this does highlight the need to make SURE the diff is installed by a competent shop that knows how to properly measure (and adjust!) bearing preload and backlash on Meredes differentials. This requires a shim assortment, some shims are NLA from MB, custom shims may have to be fabricated. I've managed to build three different LSD's using factory available shims and had zero noise with them. YMMV, etc.
I didn't mean to spread doubts, I just got that comment from a person who expressed it more like a question, so it is not widely spread rumours. I've also read reviews about Wavetrac (...Quaife and other LSDs/ATBs too) on the internet, but I did neither find any comment about noise. A proper set-up of the diff is of utmost importance. I guess some here will take on a DIY, so it should be nice with a "Tip & Trick" thread when time comes.
So, Brandon - I sign up for one too.
I'll take it by "surface shipping" i.e. boat, the shipping forwarders collecting point is in Linden, New Jersey. Me and the other Norwegian member Modzona has discussed common shipping, but we are living 1300 km (808 miles) apart so we have to check out the national shipping first.
I may have another potential buyer, so when is the last call on this?
Cheers
-a-
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I am going to give it till a week from friday,then place my order. That should give everyone enough time to decide if they want in. I am going to order some for stock, but they will be at retail on our web site. I am flexible on shipping, just let me know what you want to do. Lot of Australian guys use a freight forwarder.
Btw, you can also pay in Bitcoin
Btw, you can also pay in Bitcoin
I am going to give it till a week from friday,then place my order. That should give everyone enough time to decide if they want in. I am going to order some for stock, but they will be at retail on our web site. I am flexible on shipping, just let me know what you want to do. Lot of Australian guys use a freight forwarder.
Btw, you can also pay in Bitcoin
Aha - that was interesting, supposed I get a fixed exchange rate and the receiver carry the risk on the transaction...
It would in fact avoid the 25% Norwegian VAT on the import too because the Bitcoin is not a registered currency and the VAT is based on that. The Bitcoin transaction can neither be tracked to the payer. Virtual money sounds exciting.
-a-
GSXR and Ron500E ought to be good for at least 5-6 units apiece, for their respective fleets.guess he is back, next price break in 100. You guys need to get stepping if we are going to get to that one!
I know a few guys are out there debating, but lets get the ball rolling. I should have the ability to add a few over the next month, but I need to get the order in process as it will take a while.
To confirm your spot, you will need to pay a deposit of $600, rest due at shipping (probably 10~12 weeks). I have to prepay half up front to Wavetrac, so this will keep me from getting in over my head.
Options for payment:
- PayPal: Sales@feindms.com
- BitCoin: 1PoRb5v5EAij5aQQKs3jYrWCiQmbDNwWz8
- None of the above, you can pay with a credit card (I use Square): PM me for a phone number
- Check or other trade goods: 1511 Texas ave, #230 College Station, Texas 77840
To confirm your spot, you will need to pay a deposit of $600, rest due at shipping (probably 10~12 weeks). I have to prepay half up front to Wavetrac, so this will keep me from getting in over my head.
Options for payment:
- PayPal: Sales@feindms.com
- BitCoin: 1PoRb5v5EAij5aQQKs3jYrWCiQmbDNwWz8
- None of the above, you can pay with a credit card (I use Square): PM me for a phone number
- Check or other trade goods: 1511 Texas ave, #230 College Station, Texas 77840
Monday you'll have my payment via PayPal! Sorry for the delay.
The gears are $310.
Regrinds, shakes head
You are better man then me, that is tons of work to set up. BTW ECE cams are be 232 duration at .5mm and 7.5mm of lift, if they went that big you are going to give up a lot of base circle.
And I am totally jealous of your Evo II.
Regrinds, shakes head
You are better man then me, that is tons of work to set up. BTW ECE cams are be 232 duration at .5mm and 7.5mm of lift, if they went that big you are going to give up a lot of base circle.And I am totally jealous of your Evo II.
regrinds have SO many compromises it Hurts. the change in contact patch from the loss of base circle makes them Questionable with out Serious re-working. BTDT.
ground from blank is the Way To Go.
jono
Welcome to the club, Neil! You gonna try it out on the autox course? I'm really curious how it works.
BTW - did you ever get a Quaife? Or are you using the factory clutch LSD's?
Never did the Quaife. Still debating which car to put the wavetrac into, let alone which ratio. Perhaps I should just two wavetrac's . . . I have a 3.07 LSD that needs clutches as well.
Our very own gsxr has helped get this started and it if finally ready to kick off!
I am going to order a batch, but would like to offer up a group guy to members first. A few folks have already placed interest, so just need to see who else out there is interested. Post up or IM me for interest. Once I lock down the number and place the order, they will be a $500 deposit and the rest due when they are ready to ship. It will take about 10 weeks to produce them from when I order them, so lets get this rolling soon.
we are going to be retailing these on our site for: $1,395 US
group buy is 10% off plus free shipping in the states (little extra over seas):$1,245
We will also stock other Benz differentials from Wavetrac, so hit me up if you need one of those.
http://wavetrac.net/technical.htm
Feind - 5 (paid)
gsxr - 2 (paid)
gerryvz - 1 (paid)
Jono - 4 (paid)
modzona - 1 (paid)
Rouven036 - 2 (paid)
doolar - 1
Mejnoon - 1 (paid)
quicksilver500 - (paid)
500 AMM - 3 (paid)
Cannoli - 1
==================
Total: 22
paid - 20
Brandon:
Please PM me your telephone so I can give you a credit card. I've sent two PMs to you but I'm not getting/seeing any positive feedback that it has been sent to you.
Norm (Cannoli)
A million times sorry for the delay and not paying in time. Family issues rendered me offline and occupied with all else but the interwebs. But I'll make the payment before weekend is over, if I'm still on the order list.
My apologies if causing any problems for you Jackasic.
My apologies if causing any problems for you Jackasic.
Great news Brandon!
Not to bum you guys out, but I had a Wavetrac in my last street car (BMW E46) and I wasn't super happy with it, it was loud and had a clunky feeling when engaging, now if we are talking OS Giken (like I have in my race car) that's a flawless unit, btw I'm also not a quaife fan either. If anyone has a question on my diff builder reputation he builds many IMSA and Grand Am team diffs. Maybe the Wavetrac will work better on the 500E, but I tried to save money with the wavetrac instead of getting the OS Giken and it was a mistake. Please take these commits as my personal experience and I'm sure the wavetrac is a upgrade to the stock unit.
I've been using the Quaife in competition in two 036's for a few years now with zero problems. Both Quaife and WaveTrac have lifetime warranty, I believe.
The OS Giken still has clutch packs to wear out... in addition to costing far more (like, double the cost, IIRC) you'll also need to take them apart periodically for clutch replacement.
I have my fingers crossed that the WaveTrac will work as well as the Quaife.
The OS Giken still has clutch packs to wear out... in addition to costing far more (like, double the cost, IIRC) you'll also need to take them apart periodically for clutch replacement.
I have my fingers crossed that the WaveTrac will work as well as the Quaife.
Jeff- do you mean you could feel the "clunk" when engaging? Also, when you say "loud" do you mean a consistent whine, that got progressively louder with speed/RPM increase ? More importantly, was it progressive in it's action, or more like an on-off switch ?
The RX7club forum has a list of mods we wish we didn't do, and the OS Giken is up there with loud and clunky . . .
Dave- are you going to get new pinion seals and pinion crush collars and "mic" it like the factory ?
TIA,
neilJust read the FAQ on Wavetrac diff.
In short, I'm assuming anything with Moly-like / Extreme-Pressure additives are to be avoided.
Amsoils' Severe Gear® 75W-140 says it has extreme pressure additives, but is compatible with most limited-slip differentials. If limited-slip differential chatter occurs, add AMSOIL Slip Lock® friction modifier additive. This would seem to indicate that it could be used ?
Is Swepco 201 and Mobil 1 75w90 considered the same as Redline Shockproof ?
Also, which Motul line of gear oils ?
neil
=========
taken from FAQ tab here: http://wavetrac.net/technical.htm
In short, I'm assuming anything with Moly-like / Extreme-Pressure additives are to be avoided.
Amsoils' Severe Gear® 75W-140 says it has extreme pressure additives, but is compatible with most limited-slip differentials. If limited-slip differential chatter occurs, add AMSOIL Slip Lock® friction modifier additive. This would seem to indicate that it could be used ?
Is Swepco 201 and Mobil 1 75w90 considered the same as Redline Shockproof ?
Also, which Motul line of gear oils ?
neil=========
taken from FAQ tab here: http://wavetrac.net/technical.htm
Some have friction modifiers designed for limited slip differentials. These modifiers generally increase slipperiness and are intended to reduce clutch disc chatter in conventional clutch-type LSDs. Some gear oils such as Red Line Oil's Shockproof® type have microscopic solid particles in immersion in order to "cushion" transmission components, acting as an extreme pressure agent. The Wavetrac® and all helical gear differentials in general, operate using friction. The friction generated between its internal gears and its housing are what allow this type of differential to function.
Gear oil additives that drastically reduce friction will actually reduce the performance of gear differentials. The internals of the diff get too slick to generate adequate friction - reducing the differential's effectiveness - reducing its ability to drive both wheels.
In conclusion, when using a Wavetrac®:
•Use factory spec oils for your car
•Use Motul Synthetic high performance oils if you wish to upgrade the oil. Please consult Autotech Driveline for recommendations.
•Avoid gear oils with limited slip additives.
•Do NOT use RedLine, Shockproof® or similar gear oils.
Please note that you will void the Wavetrac® Limited Lifetime Warranty if incorrect gear oil is used.
Gear oil additives that drastically reduce friction will actually reduce the performance of gear differentials. The internals of the diff get too slick to generate adequate friction - reducing the differential's effectiveness - reducing its ability to drive both wheels.
In conclusion, when using a Wavetrac®:
•Use factory spec oils for your car
•Use Motul Synthetic high performance oils if you wish to upgrade the oil. Please consult Autotech Driveline for recommendations.
•Avoid gear oils with limited slip additives.
•Do NOT use RedLine, Shockproof® or similar gear oils.
Please note that you will void the Wavetrac® Limited Lifetime Warranty if incorrect gear oil is used.
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Found this ( http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3808517&postcount=5 ) , but it needs to be authenticated/verified:
Hi Frank,
We actually tell people to avoid all Redline products, especially Shockproof.
Shockproof reduces any gear diff's ability to function by eliminating any chance of friction.
In a rear end, oil should be 75/90 or 80/140 or whatever is close to that.
We like:
Synergyn Syngear II 80w140 http://www.xentxsynergyn.com/synergyn/gear-lubricants/syngear-ii-case-of-12-1-qt-bottles.html
Motul Gear 300 75w90, or Gear Competition 75w140
Fuchs Silkolene/TITAN SYN5 75w90
Mobil1, etc.
Transaxles are different - customers should use the factory fill or equivalent performance oil.
Regards,
Dana
Hi Frank,
We actually tell people to avoid all Redline products, especially Shockproof.
Shockproof reduces any gear diff's ability to function by eliminating any chance of friction.
In a rear end, oil should be 75/90 or 80/140 or whatever is close to that.
We like:
Synergyn Syngear II 80w140 http://www.xentxsynergyn.com/synergyn/gear-lubricants/syngear-ii-case-of-12-1-qt-bottles.html
Motul Gear 300 75w90, or Gear Competition 75w140
Fuchs Silkolene/TITAN SYN5 75w90
Mobil1, etc.
Transaxles are different - customers should use the factory fill or equivalent performance oil.
Regards,
Dana
Absolutely not. I do not touch the pinion, ever, and would not touch it unless the seal was leaking. So far, I've never had a pinion seal leak. You do not need to do anything with the pinion when installing the diff.
The biggest hassle is obtaining the correct shims for the side bearing carriers, to adjust bearing preload, and backlash. Several thicknesses are NLA and you may need to buy a thicker shim, and have a local machine shop trim them to desired spec.
Interesting about the lubes. I've been using Amsoil SVG 75W-90 in the Quaifes without any issues. I'll need to confirm with Dana before using it in the WaveTrac.
I've been using the Quaife in competition in two 036's for a few years now with zero problems. Both Quaife and WaveTrac have lifetime warranty, I believe.
The OS Giken still has clutch packs to wear out... in addition to costing far more (like, double the cost, IIRC) you'll also need to take them apart periodically for clutch replacement.
I have my fingers crossed that the WaveTrac will work as well as the Quaife.
Every track car that I have ever driven with a Quaife never felt right to me if the wheel got to light or if you ran too big of a rear bar or any bar it acted like a open diff. The wavetrac was better but felt very mechanical you could feel it working and was more like a on or off switch or reacted slow (sorry hard to describe) . The OS Giken is as smooth as butter and works perfect, the only other diff that felt as good as the OS was a $6K BMW motorsport built diff that I had for about 5 years before it blew up. I've driven all three diffs on the street, track and skidpad, you do get what you pay for with the OS Giken.
I can see where the Giken might work better on the track when one of the drive wheels is unloaded, or actually in the air... the Quaife doesn't work well in this scenario, and although the WaveTrac should be better, it may not be as smooth as the Giken.
On the street though, I've never had a complaint with the Quaife, it's pretty seamless in the 500E.
On the street though, I've never had a complaint with the Quaife, it's pretty seamless in the 500E.
Jeff- have you ever driven a Torsen ? That's in my FD RX7, and it feels so good in the corners . . .
BTW: the wavetrac has a carbon-fiber disc that's suppose to last a "lifetime". There are other discs available to "fine tune" it's response. As such, it sounds like there's some consumables in there. So I guess we need someone to pony up for some discs and find the sweeter-spot drag vs. track . . .
neil
Taken from the "How's it different" tab @ http://wavetrac.net/technical.htm:
BTW: the wavetrac has a carbon-fiber disc that's suppose to last a "lifetime". There are other discs available to "fine tune" it's response. As such, it sounds like there's some consumables in there. So I guess we need someone to pony up for some discs and find the sweeter-spot drag vs. track . . .
neilTaken from the "How's it different" tab @ http://wavetrac.net/technical.htm:
The Wavetrac® diff’s behavior can be altered in the field to suit your needs. It comes standard with carbon-fiber bias plates for the best all around performance and lifetime durability. Changeable plates using materials with different friction coefficients to fine-tune the bias ratio are sold separately.
These bias plates provide a mechanism to tune the response of the differential as a function of applied torque load. The applied torque load manifests itself as an axial load from the differential pinions into the housing. This axial force is then considered a normal force into the bias plate, and as a function of the effective coefficient of friction, provide a resistive torque to the rotational motion of the differential pinions. The resistive torque will add to the resistance of relative rotation of all components within the differential. The resistive force, however, is non-uniform since it is a function of the axial load from the differential pinions. The unbalance of the resistive torque will manifest as non-uniform energy absorption within the differential causing a bias ratio.
These bias plates provide a mechanism to tune the response of the differential as a function of applied torque load. The applied torque load manifests itself as an axial load from the differential pinions into the housing. This axial force is then considered a normal force into the bias plate, and as a function of the effective coefficient of friction, provide a resistive torque to the rotational motion of the differential pinions. The resistive torque will add to the resistance of relative rotation of all components within the differential. The resistive force, however, is non-uniform since it is a function of the axial load from the differential pinions. The unbalance of the resistive torque will manifest as non-uniform energy absorption within the differential causing a bias ratio.
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