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DRIVESHAFT VIBRATION
- Thread starter r44raven
- Start date
Are the rotors good, and without debris on the mounting surfaces? Even if they are new there are defective ones out there. Some debis behind a rotor can cause problems, or if the rotor is not perfectly straight.
I had this problem on my W201 10 or so years ago when I swapped all the brake parts. I had a slight vibration under braking after I installed the new parts, and possibly when driving too, but the suspension components on that car was worn, so I never felt that.
Anyway, turned out that the new Brembo rotors weren’t straight, so I returned them under warranty. Got new ones, and still had the vibration! Finally I returned them too, getting my money back. Bought new ones from the Mercedes dealership, and guess what... vibration gone. I never bought a Brembo rotor since.
I get suspicious when you say it vibrates when you brake, that should not be the case when everything is in good order.
I had this problem on my W201 10 or so years ago when I swapped all the brake parts. I had a slight vibration under braking after I installed the new parts, and possibly when driving too, but the suspension components on that car was worn, so I never felt that.
Anyway, turned out that the new Brembo rotors weren’t straight, so I returned them under warranty. Got new ones, and still had the vibration! Finally I returned them too, getting my money back. Bought new ones from the Mercedes dealership, and guess what... vibration gone. I never bought a Brembo rotor since.
I get suspicious when you say it vibrates when you brake, that should not be the case when everything is in good order.
That’s what I learned, the hard way!
I learned from my dad to be gentle on new rotors, but don’t know if that’s true these days. But I still brake them in carefully.
If vibration / shaking increases (or appears) while braking... something is up with the brakes, or hubs / spindle / bearings. Also need to make sure the seating surfaces between the back of the rotor and face of the hub are clean, otherwise even a perfect rotor will show "runout" on a dial gauge.
Ian, it seems you have dealt with the most suspect items. I concur with Dave that the main items to rule out now are the Hubs, spindles bearings. If it were me I would fit new wheel bearing kits both sides up front cleaning the hubs thoroughly. Then carefully test the run-out on the hub itself first – then the rotors after. Also re-check the lower balljoints and tie rods carefully for wear. It sure sounds like an issue with the front hubs / brakes when re-reading the posts above.
Klink, I believe it's the 1994 E500 shown here, so it should have the 320mm Ate iron calipers up front.
Greetings Brothers!
I am now able to update you on the driveline vibration issue that has been plaguing me and my beloved car since I got it nearly 2 years ago, even though I was away for most of that time, all efforts to re-do the suspension and everything to do with it front and rear have failed, and made me very miserable.
So - the latest was the recommendation from Jono to balance the driveshaft, which seemed to be the only oversight after we found it to be 20deg out and didn't re-balance - and once it had been re-aligned to the markers - didn't make a difference. So balance...
Then, I took it to another mechanic more local to me. He decided to detach the driveshaft from the transmission and see what happens. If the car continued to vibrate, he reasoned, then the problem would be at the front (tranny, engine) and if not then to the back.
What happened was that when he detached the front of the driveshaft, the car was smooth, and when he reconnected it, at about 20-40mph the exhaust was vibrating, noticeably. This was with the car supported on a ramp, and not a rolling road, so no weight on the wheels.
"Marvellous", we thought, "this is now proven to be a drivetrain issue, and something has simply been overlooked by the other mechanics." "I knew it", I said to myself.
Not only that, but the new mechanic noticed that the rubber bush around the connection from the driveshaft to the transmission at the centre of the flange was oval. He said that this was unusual and likely the cause of the vibration, as it was now proven not to be coming from the transmission or engine.
"This is the cosmic irony that I have been waiting (and paying) for", I said to myself. "So many stories of thousands and thousands being spent chasing vibration, only to find that a 50-dollar rubber ring is going to be the cure! Fantastic!"
So, a week later, the silly rubber ring arrives, and the mechanic spends hours replacing it, and guess what? It's worse. Now when the driveshaft is connected, not only is the exhaust vibrating, but also the bottom of the transmission. "Worse than before," says the mechanic.
When he looks and feels and examines the driveshaft, he thinks he can tell with his tool that looks like it comes from a dentist that there is an out-of-round situation at the front end of the driveshaft.
Therefore, according to him, either the driveshaft is out of balance (back to Jono's advice), or the flange is out of it's 90deg angle to the tube - "either way", we think - "this is what we need to know."
So another week or 10 painful days later, I take the driveshaft to the specialists and ask them to balance it.
The guy takes one look at the driveshaft, wiggles it, and tells me without putting it on a machine, that he can feel wear on the splines. A one-millimetre rocking when twisting, and maybe 2 millimetres up and down.
"That's the cause of the vibration," he announces, as I am wiping tears of joy and relief from my eyes, "I see it all the time with Mercs, it's the torquey engines, that's it, mate...."
"But," he says, "there are no parts available from Mercedes, no new driveshafts... " my heart sinks lower, if that were even possible...
"But," he says brightly, "I have this replacement part that has been machined to replace the mercedes part." He shows me how he will cut off the female part of the propshaft, and shows how there will be no movement whatsoever. I hug him and tell him I will see him the following day. He looks at me quizzically as I leave the workshop.
So, the shaft tube bent from the heat while they were welding the new part into the shaft, so they sent it off to their head office for straightening, then after another day of waiting, they balance it, mark it and give it back to me.
Today, I take it back to the car and have it fitted. And there's no movement at all on the splines.
But IT'S WORSE, yet curiously also different than before.
- there is now a vibration in the seat at very low speeds from 30-40km/h. It persists all the way up to 130 and beyond I assume. Nothing below 30km/h.
- there is an accompanying vibration in the steering wheel, which peaks at 100-110kmh. It is higher-frequency than before.
So up to 100km/h the seat:wheel vibration ratio is 60:40
From 100-110 it is 40:60
Above 110 it returns to 60:40
All is slightly worse on a mild incline, slightly better on a mild descent.
Now I would love for someone to tell me that the new female part is too heavy, or problematic in some way, or just wrong because I am fortunate enough to have the amazing Steve's 53k-mile driveshaft coming over any time now - and I can replace the old with the new-ish original non-tampered with part and hope that this is finally the problem solved.
Other than that - I have no clue what it might be. Everything has been done, everything has been checked.
Thanks for listening....
I am now able to update you on the driveline vibration issue that has been plaguing me and my beloved car since I got it nearly 2 years ago, even though I was away for most of that time, all efforts to re-do the suspension and everything to do with it front and rear have failed, and made me very miserable.
So - the latest was the recommendation from Jono to balance the driveshaft, which seemed to be the only oversight after we found it to be 20deg out and didn't re-balance - and once it had been re-aligned to the markers - didn't make a difference. So balance...
Then, I took it to another mechanic more local to me. He decided to detach the driveshaft from the transmission and see what happens. If the car continued to vibrate, he reasoned, then the problem would be at the front (tranny, engine) and if not then to the back.
What happened was that when he detached the front of the driveshaft, the car was smooth, and when he reconnected it, at about 20-40mph the exhaust was vibrating, noticeably. This was with the car supported on a ramp, and not a rolling road, so no weight on the wheels.
"Marvellous", we thought, "this is now proven to be a drivetrain issue, and something has simply been overlooked by the other mechanics." "I knew it", I said to myself.
Not only that, but the new mechanic noticed that the rubber bush around the connection from the driveshaft to the transmission at the centre of the flange was oval. He said that this was unusual and likely the cause of the vibration, as it was now proven not to be coming from the transmission or engine.
"This is the cosmic irony that I have been waiting (and paying) for", I said to myself. "So many stories of thousands and thousands being spent chasing vibration, only to find that a 50-dollar rubber ring is going to be the cure! Fantastic!"
So, a week later, the silly rubber ring arrives, and the mechanic spends hours replacing it, and guess what? It's worse. Now when the driveshaft is connected, not only is the exhaust vibrating, but also the bottom of the transmission. "Worse than before," says the mechanic.
When he looks and feels and examines the driveshaft, he thinks he can tell with his tool that looks like it comes from a dentist that there is an out-of-round situation at the front end of the driveshaft.
Therefore, according to him, either the driveshaft is out of balance (back to Jono's advice), or the flange is out of it's 90deg angle to the tube - "either way", we think - "this is what we need to know."
So another week or 10 painful days later, I take the driveshaft to the specialists and ask them to balance it.
The guy takes one look at the driveshaft, wiggles it, and tells me without putting it on a machine, that he can feel wear on the splines. A one-millimetre rocking when twisting, and maybe 2 millimetres up and down.
"That's the cause of the vibration," he announces, as I am wiping tears of joy and relief from my eyes, "I see it all the time with Mercs, it's the torquey engines, that's it, mate...."
"But," he says, "there are no parts available from Mercedes, no new driveshafts... " my heart sinks lower, if that were even possible...
"But," he says brightly, "I have this replacement part that has been machined to replace the mercedes part." He shows me how he will cut off the female part of the propshaft, and shows how there will be no movement whatsoever. I hug him and tell him I will see him the following day. He looks at me quizzically as I leave the workshop.
So, the shaft tube bent from the heat while they were welding the new part into the shaft, so they sent it off to their head office for straightening, then after another day of waiting, they balance it, mark it and give it back to me.
Today, I take it back to the car and have it fitted. And there's no movement at all on the splines.
But IT'S WORSE, yet curiously also different than before.
- there is now a vibration in the seat at very low speeds from 30-40km/h. It persists all the way up to 130 and beyond I assume. Nothing below 30km/h.
- there is an accompanying vibration in the steering wheel, which peaks at 100-110kmh. It is higher-frequency than before.
So up to 100km/h the seat:wheel vibration ratio is 60:40
From 100-110 it is 40:60
Above 110 it returns to 60:40
All is slightly worse on a mild incline, slightly better on a mild descent.
Now I would love for someone to tell me that the new female part is too heavy, or problematic in some way, or just wrong because I am fortunate enough to have the amazing Steve's 53k-mile driveshaft coming over any time now - and I can replace the old with the new-ish original non-tampered with part and hope that this is finally the problem solved.
Other than that - I have no clue what it might be. Everything has been done, everything has been checked.
Thanks for listening....
So, tranny and driveshaft are attached by the flector, i don't really see other rubber thingy here.
Anyway, in your description there are two new information for me:
1) the drveshaft is trying to make some "room for himself", practically killing your new parts
2) if you eliminate one prb, the vibration is worst.
Have you checked your rear drivetrain? Is it square to your engine+tranny?
It is just an idea, it is difficult to advise smthing without seeing the car, however a measurement is cheap and don't take too much time, effort.
My 0.02cts
Anyway, in your description there are two new information for me:
1) the drveshaft is trying to make some "room for himself", practically killing your new parts
2) if you eliminate one prb, the vibration is worst.
Have you checked your rear drivetrain? Is it square to your engine+tranny?
It is just an idea, it is difficult to advise smthing without seeing the car, however a measurement is cheap and don't take too much time, effort.
My 0.02cts
Attachments
I know this has been mentioned before, but most of the symptoms you describe follow my pursuit of solving a vibration issue. Mine came down to the driver (USA) side axle. This was after all other components were checked and replaced from the engine mounts back to the driveshaft. Since these are NLA from MB they replaced it with an aftermarket and the vibration moved to different speeds and sound pitch. It wasn't until they were able to find a good used MB axle with clean knuckles that the vibration dampened quite a bit from the original intensity, but isn't totally gone (that's why I acquired another used one from Jeff W).
Just a thought. Vibrations are annoying, as are interior rattles!
Just a thought. Vibrations are annoying, as are interior rattles!
Sounds like the centering sleeve, #10 in the attached FSM screenshot. I really doubt that would cause the issue described, but I guess you'll find out!!
I assume all the balancing / booming / thrumming remedies have been tried per FSM, along with "Measuring propeller shaft alignment"...?
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/Index/Groups/41PropellerShaft.htm
Attachments
I've replace a centering bushing- I think I left the rear flex joint go too long... they are available aftermarket for 25% of mb pricing. "Since these are NLA from MB they replaced it with an aftermarket " I thought driveshafts were made to order by GKN/lobro and there is zero world wide inventory. Correct me if I'm wrong!
If they are NLA- I can work on a drawing for GKN to make new assemblies. They do that stuff pretty quick. Last one we did a couple of years ago Mark Williams did the drawings.
When I think weird vib problems- I always think tires and are the wheels round, hub runout etc.
If they are NLA- I can work on a drawing for GKN to make new assemblies. They do that stuff pretty quick. Last one we did a couple of years ago Mark Williams did the drawings.
When I think weird vib problems- I always think tires and are the wheels round, hub runout etc.
The axles shafts- CV joints/1/2 shafts- Humm.. I don't think balancing it's needed due to the rpm being lower. If you are having vibration, it's due to wear in the joint. The inner joint tend to ooze. You can re-seal it and add a bit of special grease.
That said- I replaced them on a W124.030 and they made a significant improvement in the smootheness.
That said- I replaced them on a W124.030 and they made a significant improvement in the smootheness.
So you are checking for vibrations with the car in the air and the wheels hanging. All cars will vibrate like crazy like this. As said above you could check for driveshaft or something else with the half axles out but even that is going to be a bit different because the load on the rear suspension is different and the subframe will be in a slightly different spot. Anyways. Also as said above you can have almost any driveline shop these days do a shaft for these cars. Every car out there now has a two piece drive shaft with rubber flex discs. So it is not like 20years ago when only German cars had those weird things in them. And I would definitely try another set of wheels and tires to see if that changes it. And I did not read all of this but engine and transmission mounts need to be new. And not cheap uro parts.
Good luck I hate chasing this stuff.
Good luck I hate chasing this stuff.
OK, i've done all the wheels, tyres, front suspension stuff. I'll look at the half-shafts next.
The driveshaft specialist told me that they have about a 50% success rate with the new female spline part they welded onto my driveshaft last week. He says 'yes, it balanced perfectly, but with the 2hp motor we use, and that might not be enough'.
So what I have now is a localised problem, if it's the worn splines then that might account for the worn centering sleeve and vibration in the drivetrain in general.
The good news is that Steve's 53k-miler driveshaft will be picked up tomorrow and fitted on Thursday, then we'll know..... If not, the balance or wear on the half-shafts are the only things that have not been thoroughly examined..
thanks for all the posts
The driveshaft specialist told me that they have about a 50% success rate with the new female spline part they welded onto my driveshaft last week. He says 'yes, it balanced perfectly, but with the 2hp motor we use, and that might not be enough'.
So what I have now is a localised problem, if it's the worn splines then that might account for the worn centering sleeve and vibration in the drivetrain in general.
The good news is that Steve's 53k-miler driveshaft will be picked up tomorrow and fitted on Thursday, then we'll know..... If not, the balance or wear on the half-shafts are the only things that have not been thoroughly examined..
thanks for all the posts
Hi All,
So, the new usa 53k mile propshaft arrived, was balanced and brought to the mechanic who agreed that there ought to be play in the splines (of course).
He noticed that the centre bearing mount had been fitted the wrong way round, causing pressure and and 'unnatural' feel for the whole propshaft.
Apart from fuming that this could be the case, as the centre bearing had just been replaced by another mechanic, I was hoping that the old one was also badly fitted, the mechanic had just fitted the new one in the same way as the old, and that would be the end of the vibration.
On driving the car, up to 60mph, the car felt smoother and better. It's actually driveable now without me worrying that the vibration is going to destroy the car. However at 60 - 70, the vibration is still there - mild but definitely shaking the wheel - but it felt much more in the steering wheel again, and very little in the seat. This makes me feel that the seat vibration could be just a referral from the front end somewhere.
I spoke to the mechanic who refreshed all the front suspension parts back in the day (+ mounts, shocks), and he told me that the only parts that had not been checked/refreshed, was the steering box, which had a leak by the way, since repaired.
So my question is, which will probably need a new thread, is 'has anyone ever heard of a worn steering box causing a steering wheel vibration'??
So, the new usa 53k mile propshaft arrived, was balanced and brought to the mechanic who agreed that there ought to be play in the splines (of course).
He noticed that the centre bearing mount had been fitted the wrong way round, causing pressure and and 'unnatural' feel for the whole propshaft.
Apart from fuming that this could be the case, as the centre bearing had just been replaced by another mechanic, I was hoping that the old one was also badly fitted, the mechanic had just fitted the new one in the same way as the old, and that would be the end of the vibration.
On driving the car, up to 60mph, the car felt smoother and better. It's actually driveable now without me worrying that the vibration is going to destroy the car. However at 60 - 70, the vibration is still there - mild but definitely shaking the wheel - but it felt much more in the steering wheel again, and very little in the seat. This makes me feel that the seat vibration could be just a referral from the front end somewhere.
I spoke to the mechanic who refreshed all the front suspension parts back in the day (+ mounts, shocks), and he told me that the only parts that had not been checked/refreshed, was the steering box, which had a leak by the way, since repaired.
So my question is, which will probably need a new thread, is 'has anyone ever heard of a worn steering box causing a steering wheel vibration'??
I've never heard of a steering box causing vibration, however I have experienced steering wheel shake / vibration due to incorrect alignment (toe) settings... it's a long shot, but if the car hasn't been aligned recently WITH the correct spreader bar needed to set "pressed toe", that's worth looking into.
Thanks! Well, when the car first came from Japan I had an alignment done and they said it was super-straight, once again at the same good place after all the suspension work. I don't think they had the spreader bar...
I'm just back to thinking it's something in the suspension again because of the shaking wheel, but the guy has done absolutely everything he can according to him...
I'm just back to thinking it's something in the suspension again because of the shaking wheel, but the guy has done absolutely everything he can according to him...
Any shaking in the steering wheel is, IMO, unlikely to be produced by the driveshaft or axle shafts. Driveshaft issues you'll usually feel in the seat, and the steering wheel may be dead smooth. Sounds like you may be chasing 2 separate issues, perhaps?
I used to have quite a lot of shaking in my car when driving at 70mph and above.
I recently had the following work done:
replaced engine mounts
front wheel bearings
have you checked these items?
also, have you contacted Wayne Gates in North London/Harrow?
Hes a stellar guy and is extremely knowledgeable in E500E’s and M119s in general.
I recently had the following work done:
replaced engine mounts
front wheel bearings
have you checked these items?
also, have you contacted Wayne Gates in North London/Harrow?
Hes a stellar guy and is extremely knowledgeable in E500E’s and M119s in general.
Matin, did the work you did get rid of the vibration?
Gerry, I bought a new set of 16" wheels from mercedes a year ago - didn't help.
GSXR - well since yesterday and the driveshaft renewal (and center-bearing put in correctly) the seat vibration is almost eliminated, leaving the steering wheel high frequency vibration more prominent. There could very well have been 2 issues, but I'm really at a loss.
Wayne Gates is the one who did a load of work on the car at the beginning of my ownership - and it's his garage I'm going to now...
Gerry, I bought a new set of 16" wheels from mercedes a year ago - didn't help.
GSXR - well since yesterday and the driveshaft renewal (and center-bearing put in correctly) the seat vibration is almost eliminated, leaving the steering wheel high frequency vibration more prominent. There could very well have been 2 issues, but I'm really at a loss.
Wayne Gates is the one who did a load of work on the car at the beginning of my ownership - and it's his garage I'm going to now...
Yes, it got rid of ALL vibration. I took the car to 120mph (private road...) and there is zero vibrations.
I thought it was wheel balancing or tires, but when I got the engine mounts + wheel bearings done, all my problems went away.
Good luck! Terry is a great guy, he will take care of you!
Wow. I'm kind of depressed reading this due to no magic bullets found. I still have driveline vibration, and I'm starting down the road to try to lessen it. My first move is engine and trans mounts. I've also been wondering if tires can be permanently flat spotted, so to speak, by sitting for like 8-12 weeks at a time. In the past the vibration from this phenomenon has disappeared after 15 or 20 min of driving, but on my current tires, I'm not sure that they are ever really working their way back to completely round.
But the wheel bearing thing is interesting!
But the wheel bearing thing is interesting!
Side note on front wheel bearing adjustment: To do this right isn't easy, it requires a dial gauge and setting to spec of 0.01-0.02 mm. The brake pads must be pried away from the rotor enough to allow some movement, AND you MUST screw in some short lug bolts to tightly attach the disc to the hub. On at least 2 cars I've bought from enthusiasts, the bearing end play was zero. The only explanation I can come up with is that the rotor wasn't bolted tightly to the hub, and when yanking on the rotor to read the dial gauge, it was actually measuring the movement of rotor vs hub with only the one small locating screw. If your name isn't Klink, don't even think about setting this by "feel" and expecting it to be correct...
Kwontum thanks - can I ask was the problem with the half-shafts detectable by hand or eye?
There is a wierd 'hollowness' to the steering wheel at very low speeds. It feels to me that something is worn or loose - but in view of what has been done already - all to try and fix this vibration - what could it be??
Note I've also changed the rear diff, the driveshaft...
Super-frustrating because nobody has been able to locate the problem. It's still shaking through the seat as well as the wheel. It's like I'm back to square one... what's shaking the ^%$%^ car??
Note I've also changed the rear diff, the driveshaft...
Super-frustrating because nobody has been able to locate the problem. It's still shaking through the seat as well as the wheel. It's like I'm back to square one... what's shaking the ^%$%^ car??
I have done them with the rotor disc off the hub. Magnetic base dial indicator. Need to be re-checked after a few miles when replacing wheel brgs. When my wheels are off the ground- I usually pull and push to feel for play. Wish he was close I'd go drive the car.
To me it's the hardest trying to diagnosis and find your own mistake or a defective new part.
Michael
Unfortunately, no.
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