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Aftermarket "Performance" Cats: Worth the Trouble?

Yeah, well, there's a limit to how deep my pockets are. It's not my preferred option, but $2000 for the oem cats is just silly.
Agree 100%. If you have to replace the factory cats because they failed, I too would go with aftermarket cats. What I meant is that I would not want to chop up a perfectly good ($2k) factory catalyst to weld in smaller aftermarket cats that (1) might not last as long, and (2) may provide little, if any, power gain. Since your cats were toast, I probably would have done the same thing...

:5150:
 
Ok so I got myself a problem here... I'm planning on taking out the stock crossover pipe (pre-cats) where the O2 sensor plugs into and making 2 independent pipes into 2 100cpsi cats. I will also delete the resonator and put in an x-pipe into a dual/dual straight through muffler. My question is where do I plug in the sensor? Any advice?

Thanks,
Vaughn
 
Ok so I got myself a problem here... I'm planning on taking out the stock crossover pipe (pre-cats) where the O2 sensor plugs into and making 2 independent pipes into 2 100cpsi cats. I will also delete the resonator and put in an x-pipe into a dual/dual straight through muffler. My question is where do I plug in the sensor? Any advice?

Thanks,
Vaughn
Hi,
X-pipe before the cats! In its center the bore for the O2 Sensor can be created.
Alternatively, just put it into one of the 2 pipes. Bernard did it this way on one of his 6L 500Es.
 
I contacted magnaflow and asked about the 100 CPSI cats and this is what they told me...

Hello,
The lowest CPSI that Magnaflow will make is 200 cells. These can be
found in our OBD1 spun metallic converters. In 2.25" this will be part
number 59925 or 59955. Thank you for contacting Magnaflow. *

David Lewis
Tech/Sales Specialist
Magnaflow Exhaust Products
Office (800)990-0905 ext. 1141
Fax (949)858-8628
dlewis@magnaflow.com
www.magnaflow.com
 
Ok so it's made in the USA but it's not for sale in the USA?...

Vaughn,

I looked further into this and apparently we have done some private
label 100 cell converters for the European market. Although with it
being a private label it only appears to be available through Magnaflow
Europe, and not on a Magnaflow U.S catalog.

David Lewis
Tech/Sales Specialist
Magnaflow Exhaust Products
Office (800)990-0905 ext. 1141
Fax (949)858-8628
dlewis@magnaflow.com
www.magnaflow.com
 
More stuff he says...

It's the fact that it's private label, were building a product outside
of out catalog line for someone else in mass quantities. Where they will
take to advertise distribute and resale on there own. The issue here is
that this private label happens to be in Europe. If someone or company
were to do this in the U.S it would be more easily available in the
states. *

David Lewis
Tech/Sales Specialist
Magnaflow Exhaust Products
Office (800)990-0905 ext. 1141
Fax (949)858-8628
dlewis@magnaflow.com
www.magnaflow.com
 
It's a partial X-pipe, at best.:duck:

I got your X-pipe right here...

View attachment 8753

Still digesting all of the good info here in this thread.

One observation though: Steve, your "X" pipe is AFTER the exhaust pipes were/are already joined together for a considerable distance right before the cats. So I'm not sure if you are getting any real additional benefit from joining the exhaust together again right after the cats. Just something to think about. Not slighting you in any way though as I am doing the same exact thing as you are (joining the exhaust back together again after the cats) only I did it with a "Y" pipe into a 3" single pipe. Makes it quiet enough that I didn't need a resonator or muffler! (I did this right after our most recent track day. Too bad I can't test the results of my work at the track now!)
Regards, Eric
 
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Interesting mails from Magnaflow, Vame.
IMHO a bad business decision. However maybe you can concentrate on finding sources for 100cell (CPSI) metal cats in the US? Magnaflow has NONE in stock for the US Market? :-(

Eric, yes the X-pipe should be placed before the cats, mufflers, silencers, etc.
It has something to do with exhausts velocity, to create a vacuum in the opposing bank and sucking the exhausts out.
 
However maybe you can concentrate on finding sources for 100cell (CPSI) metal cats in the US? Magnaflow has NONE in stock for the US Market?

100 cell cats in the USA are like Blacks in Africa or Catholics in the Vatican, they're pretty much everywhere. Pick up a copy of the best tech magazine around - Circle Track - and look at the ads, or check any of the big parts houses, Speedway, Summit, PAW, etc., etc.

Kind Regards,

Ron
 
It might be that the 100 cell cats in USA are sold "for off road use only" or some such malarky. I've never seriously investigated this so I'm not sure...

:detective:
 
Well I guess I'll just stick with the 200 cell cats until I find a proper 100 cell cat...
My setup will be 2 independent pipes into the x pipe, then to the cats, then to a dual straight through muffler.
There still should be power gains right?
 
There still should be power gains right?
Compared to stock, yes, there may be slight power gains. Just don't expect a lot. I'd be impressed if you had before & after dyno graphs showing 10hp. I'd plan on single digits.

:seesaw:
 
I'm replacing the exhaust on my '92 from just before the cats all the way back.
I'm a little confused and looking for some guidance as to the best way to go. From the reading I've done, here's what I have come up with: the two single pipes into a X-pipe with the O2 sensor mounted in the middle, or in one of the pipes, then to two aftermarket 100 cell cats (if I can find them here in the US) if not two 200 cell cats, then to a dual straight through muffler.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best cat, X-pipe, and muffler to use? I'm seeing Magnaflow quite a bit, are they as good as any?
Any help, suggestions, or links to actual products would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris
 
I'm replacing the exhaust on my '92 from just before the cats all the way back.
I'm a little confused and looking for some guidance as to the best way to go. From the reading I've done, here's what I have come up with: the two single pipes into a X-pipe with the O2 sensor mounted in the middle, or in one of the pipes, then to two aftermarket 100 cell cats (if I can find them here in the US) if not two 200 cell cats, then to a dual straight through muffler.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best cat, X-pipe, and muffler to use? I'm seeing Magnaflow quite a bit, are they as good as any?
Any help, suggestions, or links to actual products would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

Magnaflow is good, if you install at a Magnaflow dealer you get lifetime warranty. Dynomax is good too. Have you guys seen the new Dynomax muffler? It's also an x pipe.

http://dynomax.com/mufflers.php?muffler=ultraflox

What do you guys think about this one? Is it worth the extra $30?
 
100 cell cats in the USA are like Blacks in Africa or Catholics in the Vatican, they're pretty much everywhere. Pick up a copy of the best tech magazine around - Circle Track - and look at the ads, or check any of the big parts houses, Speedway, Summit, PAW, etc., etc.

Kind Regards,

Ron

This is an email from summit racing when I asked about 100 cell catalytic converters...

Thank you for your e-mail Vaughn,

Unfortunately, we have never heard of them or do not carry them. You might try doing a Google or Yahoo search for them.

If you need further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

We appreciate your business. Thank you, Bill Summit Racing Equipment
 
This is an email from summit racing when I asked about 100 cell catalytic converters...

Thank you for your e-mail Vaughn,

Unfortunately, we have never heard of them or do not carry them. You might try doing a Google or Yahoo search for them.

If you need further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

We appreciate your business. Thank you, Bill Summit Racing Equipment

Hmmm odd that Summit wouldn't have them so...

If you Google 100 Cell cats and then hit "images" you will find 61,400,000 listings. One of the 61 million hits probably has it....

Or try these:
maperformance.com
speedtechexhausts.com
6speedonline.com
pumabuild.com

Kind Regards,

Ron
 
Or try these:
maperformance.com
speedtechexhausts.com
6speedonline.com
pumabuild.com

Kind Regards,

Ron

Thanks a lot for your input, but all these vendors don't carry them. I phoned speed tech exhaust and they said that it was illegal in the US to have 100 Cell cats. He said that it was required to have 200 and over. Which leads me to believe that he didn't know what he's talking about lol!
 
Guys, don't forget what I posted earlier on this page. I put a generous sized and shaped "Y" pipe immediately after the stock cats and ran that into a almost perfectly straight 3" single pipe that I ran to the back of the car. This has made it quiet enough that I didn't need a resonator or muffler! AGAIN, NO RESONATOR OR MUFFLER! The car is acceptably quiet (the Sauceman can vouch for me). It's even quite enough that the wife likes it! Try it for yourself! The money you save on muffler(s) can be spent on better cats!

In an article published back in the '80s, David Vizard showed with a decibel meter that cats do help silence the exhaust somewhat. And I saw a huge decrease in noise with the Y pipe, and a bit more reduction in noise just from adding the rest of the pipe to the back of the car.
Regards, Eric
 
But wouldn't it be significantly louder with "performance" cats?

Not really, your resonator and muffler determine the volume for the most part.

I used a Magnaflow high flow cat (two into one) which is what Magnaflow recommended for the 500e. Believe it was originally designed for the 5.0l Mustang. So from there, its 3" pipe all the way back to a Magnaflow rear muffler.

At idle, the 500e is very quiet. Even on the freeway it is still not very loud, but it does get loud if you open it up. No drone in the car at all and no complaints from me.

Skip to 0:53 for the exhaust ;-)

[youtube]?v=6bNK5jai6X8[/youtube]
 
Rik,

I've seen your videos before and I always go to your site for reference. I was debating if I should set mine up like your's then this thread came up and I decided to install an x-pipe as well.
 
It's funny how he said that they have never heard of them!
Yeahh thats really funny.
I wonder... how is that in the US? The racing teams, what do they use? No cats at all?
In Europe racing, cats are a requirement, no matter in which "class". If its rally, or round-course, etc... They all use therefor the 100cell cats in Europe, since the almost zero added backpressure compared to "no cats".

I used a Magnaflow high flow cat
Yeahh and however they call it, whether it be "Superflow" or "Mega-highflow" or whatever, all cats listed i found in US shops, Manufacturer independent, are still ceramic base-carrier 400CPSI cats. Maybe a tiny little bit better than stock, since they are smaller and therefor have less cell total in it, but still far away from "optimal" - 100cell metal cats.

Look for instance on this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/410200-FLOW...Parts_Accessories&hash=item23195b701b&vxp=mtr
I laugh my ass of when seeing the super-dense ceramic cells in it. IMHO calling this "HIGHFLOW" is a fraud. Look at the 6th picture... And compare it with Jelmers posted cell density of his 100cell metal cats!
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...orth-the-Trouble&p=22047&viewfull=1#post22047
 
But wouldn't it be significantly louder with "performance" cats?

"Significantly"? No. A little? If you are setting your car up like mine with no resonator or muffler, probably. Vizard tested 2 different cats and one was a tiny bit louder than the other.

Not really, your resonator and muffler determine the volume for the most part.

In Vizard's tests there were minor noise differences between the two cats and when he ran no cat. In all three cases there was a Sonic turbo muffler in place.
Regards, Eric
 
The x-pipe makes it quieter too right?
So 2 independent pipes, into the x-pipe, then to the 100CPSI cats, then out?


Edit:
Eric,

Would it be possible for you to make a sound clip of your car just so my boss (wife) can hear it? She will be riding in the car too and she doesn't want it too loud and droney.
 
Not at this time. Amazingly, my camera, which is only 6 1/2 years old, lacks a USB port. I'm still working on a solution. Just tell your wife that my wife approves, and she is like most women when it comes to this kind of stuff. BTW, ALL of the videos of my car at the track were made BEFORE I did this system, so they won't help. Hopefully, our track will re-open soon, and we'll see some new videos with the new system.

Regarding the X pipe, I can't say. I'm a Y pipe man myself, as I really prefer to blend the two pipes together in such a way where they are already flowing in the same direction, like they do in a header collector, not at a 45 degree angle to each other, as they do in an X pipe. Seems like the best way to encourage optimum scavenging. ALL OEMs prefer Y pipes to X pipes too. Must be for a reason. I don't think Vizard is big on X pipes either.
Regards, Eric
 
Rik,

I've seen your videos before and I always go to your site for reference. I was debating if I should set mine up like your's then this thread came up and I decided to install an x-pipe as well.

Nothing wrong with using a x-pipe. Have used them myself on several of my cars.
 
The x-pipe makes it quieter too right?
So 2 independent pipes, into the x-pipe, then to the 100CPSI cats, then out?


Edit:
Eric,

Would it be possible for you to make a sound clip of your car just so my boss (wife) can hear it? She will be riding in the car too and she doesn't want it too loud and droney.

Most custom exhausts I have seen normally have a x-pipe inserted in place of the center resonator, so its after the cats.
 
Hi,
X-pipe before the cats! In its center the bore for the O2 Sensor can be created.
Alternatively, just put it into one of the 2 pipes. Bernard did it this way on one of his 6L 500Es.

Rik,

Did you see Christian's opinion on the x-pipe subject?
 
Rik,

Did you see Christian's opinion on the x-pipe subject?

My knowledge on the topic is someone limited to specific research for specific applications.

The x-pipe is a common modification on V8's cars and the general consensus of some is to place the x-pipe as close to the mufflers as possible. Now on the other side of the coin, the other consensus is to place the x-pipe as far forward as possible, where the exhaust gases are the hottest. Magnaflow and some others have their x-pipes right after the cats and even some others put the x-pipe in place of the secondary cats.

I have never seen nor heard of anyone putting a x-pipe in front of the cats. Does not mean its a bad thing and frankly I wouldn't think so. On most cars that just isnt a feasible mounting location, so that is probably why it is not done that way.

On my Corvette, the x-pipe was installed near the rear, mainly because that was where the factory "H" pipe was situated (and that is what it replaced). I don't seem to have any pictures of the x-pipe installed though, just the H pipe while it was off the car.

I ran that car with and without cats. There was no sound difference. The exhaust did smell really bad with no cats though. With no cats it did net some HP, don't remember exactly, something to the tune of 7-10 hp.

proxy.php
 
Wow 7-10 HP! Did you ever try running the 500e without cats and see if you get any gains?

Here in Washington state, new cars do not have to go through emissions for five years, hence why I was able to do that with the Corvette. I have to run the 500e through emissions every other year, so I have the cat (singular as there is only one now) on the car. Hard to say if there would be any gains without them on the 500e.

Remember the Corvette is a different animal, one that is de-tuned from Chevy. Everything you do to a car like that free's up power. There really isn't much left on the table with the 500e unfortunately.
 
Oh sorry I didn't know that it was already adressed in th beginning. I'm just trying to get the most for my money because I already spent so much on my car.
 
Guys, sorry to raise this from the dead but I'm searching for 100 cells for the car I just picked up. The cat has been removed which will be no bueno for inspection here in Texas. Has anybody found a source of confirmed 100 cells here in the U.S. Also, for those of you going down the exhaust building route, I have used Burns Exhaust stuff for several systems I have designed for race & old muscle cars. http://www.burnsstainless.com/ Great quality stuff. Just an FYI.

**EDIT** More digging finally found them. Mandrel Bending Solutions makes them although they don't list 2.25" on their website.

J
'01 CL500
'92 500E
'90 Porsche Carrera(964) widebody(supercharged)
'03 Porsche GT3 Cup(track wench):bowdown:
Various other American & British lumps
 
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Those cats are indeed less thick than the ones used in my car, might be a bit longer.

The bit about "Not for sale in California" scares me a bit, though. Isn't California the state with the most strict emission norms? Could it be they are just barely getting their emission standards in other states (and would probably fail in the EU)?

If not, we might've found another cat supplier :)
 
You bet! See photo below. Additional photos are here. The small "muffler" looking item is sort of a resonator, and it allows exhaust gasses to mix between the pipes from the left & right cylinder bank, acting kind of like an "X pipe".

:banana1:

proxy.php

Dave, this factory non -kat is it a straight fit on later models i.e 94 on ? Also, does this mean that there were 036s produced with no cats?? Can't make out the part number from the photos, do you have it please!?
 
Dave, this factory non -kat is it a straight fit on later models i.e 94 on ? Also, does this mean that there were 036s produced with no cats?? Can't make out the part number from the photos, do you have it please!?
It is a direct fit for any .036 chassis, but you will need to have an aftermarket O2 sensor bung welded in. And yes, there were a handful of early .036's built without cats. Part number is: 124-490-19-20

:apl:
 
I'm replacing the exhaust on my '92 from just before the cats all the way back.
I'm a little confused and looking for some guidance as to the best way to go. From the reading I've done, here's what I have come up with: the two single pipes into a X-pipe with the O2 sensor mounted in the middle, or in one of the pipes, then to two aftermarket 100 cell cats (if I can find them here in the US) if not two 200 cell cats, then to a dual straight through muffler.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best cat, X-pipe, and muffler to use? I'm seeing Magnaflow quite a bit, are they as good as any?
Any help, suggestions, or links to actual products would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

I guess this is a good place to chime in.

Gents, after months of studying yours and others' thoughts on this topic (Chris, I feel your pain), I bit the bullet yesterday and replaced everthing after the O2 sensor on my '92 500E with a custom Magnaflow system. I ended up with the high flow cats Jelmer showed ("CA/CE 59956 0410" is the number that was engraved on them -- I think someone was looking for that); after the cats, into a Y-pipe; from there, to a 14" long Magnaflow muffler where the resonator used to live; from there to a 10" long Magnaflow muffler where the back box used to live, from there out to the tips (a la 2PHAST).

Sounds great -- deep, quiet V8 rumble. From inside the cabin, no audible difference from before throughout the RPM range -- even at WOT. Just as quiet as before at idle. From outside the car, you can definitely tell something's up with the car, but passers by just think it's a big V8 Mercedes, as the rest of the car's stance denotes. Nowadays, AMG has gotten the public used to these "slightly different, more powerful" Mercedes' -- even in a town like Sarasota.

A couple of notes from the experience: (a) I may re-do the tips, and simply cut the rear bumper for a more stealthy look. That may mean a re-do on the back box. So if you like an OEM look, consider doing that the first time; (b) I liked having all the components there -- resonator delete was too loud for me. My exhaust fabricator let me "sound test" different fitments, which was helpful. Also, while I could have run cat-less, in the end with the high-flows available, I figured why break the law if you don't have to; (c) the installer was very adamant about pipe quality (14 gage, no 16 or 18 gage to save money, as in the kits) and installing later components OVER the one in front of it, so as not to end up with unintended back pressure. He says "most" welders get both of these "wrong" -- meaning they do what works for them (cheaper piping and easier install) instead of what works for you (better piping and a correct weld joint).

When I get some time, I'll post pictures, although I think we have plenty on this thread already. I uploaded a Youtube of the sound (search "W124 500E Exhaust" and look for the silver one filmed from the rear driver corner). Butt-dyno results are impressive -- she's definitely accelerating quicker, 2nd gear start with ASR off burns rubber for about 3x as long (1.5 seconds vs. .5 seconds, guestimate), 1st gear start (WOT) with ASR off is now an affirmatively obnoxious waste of tires -- like almost 3 seconds worth of burn, similar to the S55 -- luckily I don't drive that way. This may just be because my stock cats were starting to clog and rattle. But I doubt it. The right exhaust on these cars is money well spent.

You guys have helped me tons, so I hope this helps someone here.

Cheers,

maw
 
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Great to hear you're satisfied with the results. Looking forward to pictures!

I couldn't find the YouTube vid you wrote about. Or did you mean
[youtube]zVcTqNRYdeQ[/youtube] ?

Also: any idea when your car needs its checkup? I'm interested to hear if your car passes the pollution requirements (mine did, but barely...)
 

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