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Aftermarket "Performance" Cats: Worth the Trouble?

400Eric

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I want to bring up something that has me curious. GSXR has stated several times in several different places that he completely removed his cats altogether and saw zero performance gain (documented on the track). So how would one expect to see a performance gain with aftermarket "performance" cats?
Regards, Eric
 
In the stock exhaust system probably ZERO. ;-)
However they are a good and cheap replacement for broken stock cats (which happens quite often in germany on the .034 and 0.36). Because "only" removing the broken stock cats ceramic "cores" and leaving those bulky cat cases in place will cost you probably a few ponies and leaves you with a raspy, ugly "rattle" sound.

If you want to know more about exhaust tuning i give you two links here. First is about camshaft-basics by David Vizard (the well known engine guru). He said there Quote:
Now that we have covered the effect overlap has on street manners, it is time to look at its effect on power output. Let's make one thing clear here: Big (but not excessive) overlap is a prime key to big power numbers, but only if your exhaust system sucks. Literally. If you have ever heard that an engine needs a little backpressure, you might want to ask yourself why an engine would want an exhaust system that literally pushes exhaust back into the combustion chamber rather than sucking it out. The simple answer is, it doesn't. If a big-overlap, big-cammed engine has an exhaust system with any measurable backpressure, the price paid is a big drop in output.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0607phr_camshaft_basics/viewall.html (Be The Camshaft Expert)
And: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index.html (Exhaust Science Demystified)

A good made entirely 2-way exhaust system with 100cell metal cats and x-pipe is worth 10-15hp on a stock 500E engine (dyno proven in germany by Bernard and others), the reason for this is what i think today, primarily the X-Pipe in conjuction with the Zero backpressure after the X-pie, that such a setup has.

Here is a test in which the X-Pipe developed the same power gains as open headers: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/exhaust_system_installation/index.html
 
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Thanks for those links Christian!

And that David Vizard! He is one of England's greatest gifts to America! I have several of his books!

What is it about "Daves" almost always being smart about car stuff? We have David Vizard, GSXR Dave, and then Westminster Dave, the guy with the quickest 7xx/9xx series Volvo at my track!
Regards, Eric
 
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I'll show you two 500E Videos here:
[youtube]dg7m-zejvyg[/youtube] and [youtube]VEu4TJG0CGc[/youtube]
Both cars have something in common, they accelerate pretty well, quicker than normal stock 500Es do. The one just needs slightly over 5 Seconds to 100kph, the other roughly 5.6 seconds. They are both quicker than, what i always thought was, the quickest stock 500E in a Video on Youtube.:
[youtube]CBZLsEMth-Y[/youtube]

What both have in common either, is that they drive with 100cell metallic "performance cats" ;-) The second one (with the "travel computer") had his LH-Readjusted on the Dyno aswell and has according to the description now 350HP and a little over 500NM of Torque.
And i mean his car goes really well, even with half-full fuel-tank and 4 Persons on board:

[youtube]BZ9if9MRqy8[/youtube]


EDITED BY GERRYVZ FOR EMBEDDING.
 
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I have two magnaflow 100 cells waiting here, they'll be installed next week. Think I'll re-visit the dyno afterwards, since I still have his invitation to come back.
 
Nice, please do a lot of pictures from under the car. Also please ask the shop if they can note all the lengths of custom pipes they used to make the magnaflows fit.
I found my Stock cats (currently stored on the garage floor) also rattling at one side, so i will also replace them with Magnaflow 100cell cats.

I would give the LH a few days to adjust (if any adjustment necessary at all) and then on the Dyno with ya^^
 
When I went on the Magnaflow website I couldn't find 100cell cats. I only found this

http://www.magnaflow.com/02catalytic_converters/02product/displayuniversal.asp?universal=94005
In Germany they sell hundreds of em every month...:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/300375504278?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

In the US the situation on ebay seems the be different. There are 10.000 items listed when searching for "Magnaflow cat" and i checked around 50 items in the last minutes, but in ZERO it is desribed what cell density they have.
There are metal and ceramic based cats from magnaflow listed. Some are called "hiFlo", but when pictures are linked that show the inside, you see that the cells are very dense, more like 400CPSI (Which is stock density on nearly every car, including the 500E).

Crazy, maybe drop Magnaflow a mail where to order 100CPSI metal cats in the US.
 
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Not much to see. This is how they arrived.
IMAG0362.jpg

IMAG0365.jpg

Inside:
IMAG0367.jpg

Did get a very good impression when I ordered them: they phoned me asking what vehicle I wanted to put them under, since a newer E500 wouldn't pass emission testings with these (you'd need the 200 cell ones).
 
I'm not sure, to be honest. It simply said "MagnaFlow Rennkat Sportkat 100 Zeller Mercedes E Klasse" on the ad (see http://www.ebay.nl/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300688185417 for the new posting).

Car is at the shop now, I've asked them to take photo's of the process (we'll see if they come through on that), but also to document the tubing needed to fit these. After I get my car back I'll make some movies to give you an impression of the sound.
 
Too late to get a photo of the part number / label on the original box shown above?

:detective:
 
Yay! The car is back, and sounds great. A real wolf in sheep's clothing, now. You can't hear the engine; until you demand plenty of power! :)

We did a game of catch-me-if-you-can on the freeway, and my car was exactly as fast as 036's - and he's without cats. I'll be sure to dyno the car in a while, I'm really anxious to find out how many horsies escaped in the years.

This is the current in-car sound. You can hear wind blowing, so that should give you a reference of how quiet it now is.
[youtube]MJSqiX8o8vo[/youtube]

Pictures will follow soon, they made side-by-side comparisons and detailed photo's of the bits and pieces that needed to get welded in.
 
Negative, sorry. The units themselves are without any markings, the invoice was without part numbers, and I believe the box was without any part numbers, as well. I emailed Oliver Franke (the seller):

Jelmer,

Perfect!

We don't have a Magnaflow part number for this converter it is made on special order just for us.
Just tell the guys you ordered the converter, this is info enough if someone wants to order them.

Oliver


Oliver Franke
Generalvertretung MagnaFlow Deutschland
fastforward performance company powered by Magnaflow SRL
 
Sounds to me like he just wants to have a monopoly on the market. Thanks for trying though.
Regards, Eric
 
I talked to a guy at 4wheel parts (only Magnaflow dealer in Hawaii) and the guy said that this is pretty much if not better than 100 cell cats.

http://www.4wheelparts.com/Performa...c=74&t_s=49&t_pt=3299&t_pl=9770&t_pn=M/F14105

They don't have this in the Magnaflow website but he said if you go to a Magnaflow authorized dealer with the part number they can special order it for you.
As long as there is NO cell density listed its pretty much worthless. Hi-Flo, whatever Super Names they give them. 100cell is the lowest density possible, this is used in Motorsports around the Globe since ages (especially in Europe) and maintains a almost zero backpressure in the Cat Area, while still catalyzing harmful emissions by the factory requirement.
 
If you install new catalytic converters, be sure to install a very large diameter (0,5m) smog pump so as to heat them up even quicker !!
 
Even though I'm pretty satisfied with my current setup, a word of warning for those who want to attempt to fit the same cats as I have. I've had a few scratching sounds lately when going over very steep speedbumps (we love those in the Netherlands *sigh*), and I just found out it's because of the cats: they are lower than normal.

The normal cats are much longer, but thinner and lower, and can next to each other. These are round so they had to be fit slightly lower, causing them to "stick out" under the vehicle.

proxy.php


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We love speedbumps here too. You need to find other routes even if it's a long way round, mate.:banana2:
 
JB, you do this in Holland they'll flick those fat roll up joints at you:lolol:

Meh if that happens, I'll just get it to pass APK (MOT) and remove the cats again :P

Oh, I just realized: the cats are midway under the car at the moment. If I take the bumps quicker, I might not notice it! That would explain why I never noticed it, until the missus drove the car - after that I drove slower here, too. Hmmm. I'm being forced to drive quicker through my neighborhood. How criminal.
 
Yes! Just fly over those suckers! That's what I do! (Makes The Sauceman cringe when I do it. He forgets that my cars aren't lowered.)
Regards, Eric
 
No, I don't forget. I just know its still not good for your car. Besides, I feel like I'm going to roll over with your monster truck ride height. Then again, your tires would need to have some amount of tread to grab enough to flip the car. :-p
 
Got the pictures from the shop today. Hopefully its of use to anyone.
 

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Jelmer,

Is the first section (down pipe after manifold) of the exhaust consist of two separate pipes wrapped together ? or the pipes fuse into one large pipe then back to two pipes ? picture 1&7.
 
A very good question, and I wish I had the answer. The rest of the exhaust is stock, so I'm sure Gerry or Dave can chime in?
 
The stock pipe starts out as two separate tubes, but they join together into a wide oval-section pipe. That way the O2 sensor sees a mixture of gasses from all eight cylinders. After the O2, it goes back into two separate pipes.

proxy.php


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So the 500E had an X-pipe of some sort! I was trying to find out for a long time.
 
So the 500E had an X-pipe of some sort! I was trying to find out for a long time.
Yes, I suppose it did! Never thought of it that way but the factory pipe is an "X" prior to the cats.

The factory non-KAT pipe is also an "X-pipe" but further back in the system, the crossover occurs inside the mini-resonator that is part of the non-KAT pipe.

:deniro:
 
Hi Dave,

Would you have a picture of the non-KAT system, showing the "x-pipe" further back?

Thanks in advance,

Chicky
 
Would you have a picture of the non-KAT system, showing the "x-pipe" further back?
You bet! See photo below. Additional photos are here. The small "muffler" looking item is sort of a resonator, and it allows exhaust gasses to mix between the pipes from the left & right cylinder bank, acting kind of like an "X pipe".

:banana1:

proxy.php
 
No, definitely NO X-Pipe ;-)
Completely different design, no venturi effect, just 2 barrels that meet into one larger one for a long time and then later one move into 2 restricting cats. Please don't get confused here and spread wrong information. ;-)
X-Pipe is this:

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proxy.php


proxy.php

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No worries. The X,Y,Z, or any other letter crossover pipe is worth single-digit power gains, at BEST, on the E500E/M119 compared to either stock exhaust pipe. Any claims otherwise better come with bulletproof before & after dyno graphs. I've yet to see anything except ButtDyno™ reports.

:stirthepot: :stickpoke: :hornets:
 
Sounds like the best exhausts improve just that, sound.

The one thing I feel the original exhaust was missing that may have added some power is a turbo.
 
No worries. The X,Y,Z, or any other letter crossover pipe is worth single-digit power gains, at BEST, on the E500E/M119 compared to either stock exhaust pipe. Any claims otherwise better come with bulletproof before & after dyno graphs. I've yet to see anything except ButtDyno™ reports.

:stirthepot: :stickpoke: :hornets:

How about this one: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/exhaust_system_installation/index.html
You endless doubter :-) :stickpoke:

To find out, we tested three exhaust-system configurations on Magnaflow’s in-house Dynojet. For a baseline, we ran the car with open headers and saw 333 hp at 6,300 rpm and 304 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 at the rear wheels. Next, we ran a 2-½-inch bolt-together system consisting of a BBK short off-road H-pipe designed to fit the company’s full-length headers connected to a set of race-type 2-½-inch welded mufflers with turndowns. Our Mustang’s carbureted 302 didn’t like this combo, as power fell to 323 hp at 6,300 rpm and 295 lb-ft of torque at 5,200. The increased backpressure also richened up the air/fuel mixture by about two carburetor jet sizes.

Finally, we swapped on the stepped X-pipe setup and were impressed to see power levels equal to the open headers: 335 hp at 6,300 hp and 302 lb-ft at 5,200. That’s a gain of 12 rear-wheel horsepower, although it turns out we weren’t really giving anything up or gaining anything extra from the open headers. So the car’s happy, and our ears are even happier!

;-)
Only because you fiddled around a with the stock 500E parts like you stated in other posts about exhausts, with and without cats and didn't see any improvement on the dyno, doesn't mean you won't get any Power gains with a good made exhaust system.
Its the same as pushing people with broken stock 500E cats in investing any €/$ in the stock ~1800€ cats (yes they are available again in a low batch since 3-4weeks at the dealers in germany due to increased demand - yes another myth busted that those stock cats wont break, lol) even though for that money you get a complete stainless steel 2 way exhaust from the exhaust manifold till the end, with X-pipe and 100cell metal cats, together with (depending on company) 10 year or even life-long warranty on corrosion here in germany. In my ears that sound like nonsense to invest any money in the stock parts when something way better is available for less, honestly.

The X-Pipe before the cats sucks out exhaust gases from the opposing bank, just like GOOD MADE Headers do. Same principle at baseline... Of course this won't net you anything with the stock cats and the stock 2->1 way exhaust system after it. As i've said it has to made complete, well thought through by professionals in the exhaust business.

Again, people in Germany proved it with Dyno-Runs, Bernard, Thomas Burgmann and others (Videos from the Dyno runs are on Youtube, dunno how often i posted it already?).
If you guys don't believe me, drop me a PM and i hand out Bernards contact details for you. I write with him at least once a week over Facebook, and he confirmed a couple of times, that a good 2 way exhaust with X-Pipe and 100cell Metal cats is worth at least around 10HP (DIN!) if not more on the dyno with 500Es. And you feel it with your ButtDyno too.
I mean, i don't know what to think everytime, in German Forums such exhaust tuning is standard and well known, yes also at the Mercedes Folks, not only M119 specific, yet still here on 500E Forums, its considered as nonsense or at least "not worth it".

Try it, invest the money, and build yourself such an exhaust or let it be build by a motorsports-company or an exhaust-tuner that knows his business.. OK wait, granted in the US you can't even have access to any "low cell-density" listing on metal cats anywhere. Its like its totally unknown in the US. I wonder why :-(
In Europe its a well known standard since ages in Motor Sports, and trust me, those guys know their handwork pretty well.
Go for instance to any of the Porsche-Cup drivers racing teams and try to tell them they should usw a crappy 400CPSI++ ceramic cat system with numerous times from 2->1 and back again pipe-design, they would outright laugh at you.
 
Speaking of busting myths:
100cell metal cats, together with (depending on company) 10 year or even life-long warranty on corrosion here in germany
No way. I've spoken with the seller of my cats, and he told me more-or-less how they work. The amount of active material in the 100 cell cats is enough for 60k on our cars, after that they'll become less and less effective. The 200 cell units have *drum roll* more of the fancy material and will last longer and give increased backpresure, but cost much more.

From what I learned is that the cats that I currently have improve the airflow in the exhaust and might yield a few hp extra (really need to get it to a dyno soon), but they are much smaller and won't last as long as the stock cats.

Heck, the only reason why my cats failed after 18 years and 150k km is because the ignition was all messed up, leading to unburnt fuel in the cats. No cat will ever survive that, but I doubt any aftermarket cat will live as long as the original ones.
 
You miss-read my sentence Jelmer... the warranty covers corrosion of the exhaust - not more not less. Stock exhausts made of conventional steel rust over time (mostly from the inside to outside because of acids and water by the exhaust gases) and so you need to replace mufflers, etc over time. The custom made exhausts (99,9% made of Stainless Steel) don't and thats why you get such warranties in germany from them.

The amount of active material in the 100 cell cats is enough for 60k on our cars, after that they'll become less and less effective.
Never heard of that, good metallic cats live as long as ceramic ones if we talk about the catalyzing layer(s), the base "mesh" and the outside even live WAY WAY longer.
But Ok, the Magnaflows maybe do that, they are the cheapest one you can get, 60K++ (would be interesting to see when you wont pass exhaust-checks anymore... after 60K, after 80K or more) for 85€ is a bargain.
The geraman exhaust companies mostly use HJS metallic cats, that are FIA Homologated for easier approval by our TüV. But they are expensive when bought alone - ~350€ per piece, but german made high quality.

Heck, the only reason why my cats failed after 18 years and 150k km is because the ignition was all messed up, leading to unburnt fuel in the cats. No cat will ever survive that, but I doubt any aftermarket cat will live as long as the original ones.
You never know... most cats i read about that broke on the 500Es, where really "broken". The ceramic layers broke, for whatever reason. Other issues were that they were molten inside, for whatever reasons (to lean mixture - to hot exhaust gases? To long at V-Max on the german autobahn with/without combustion issues? Everything combined + age - who knows...).
Both of those failures should never happen on a metallic cat. They don't melt because of the strong base carrier material (steel!) and they don't crack inside like ceramics do - 2 MAJOR advantages.

Fact is, that such above desribed issues (cracking, melting) does not only happen on the 500Es but on all other cars at this age/milage aswell. The 500E cats are in no way better than any other ceramic cats on any other cars on the world.
So about what basics are we discussing about now? :-)
 
I'm still waiting on dyno graphs from an M119, before & after. The Car Craft tests are almost meaningless since we have Mercedes factory exhaust systems, not Ford. And they had tubular headers, while we do not. It's just not an apples-to-apples comparison. In the end all they really proved was that a good exhaust system will equal having no exhaust system (open headers).

I've seen videos of dyno runs but not any clear dyno graphs for the M119. From what I'm hearing, it's at best maybe 10hp gain, for most likely a cost of $1000+ do do it properly (and, it requires chopping up the stock exhaust pipe, which many people are not willing to do). So far I'm just not seeing the ROI for 10hp - especially on a 5.0L engine. Camshafts would be a better investment, IMO (even without the exhaust mods). I'm not interested in cheap small cats and a $100 hack job to weld them in. To do it RIGHT isn't cheap. And there is still not any magical 20-30hp gain!!
 
You miss-read my sentence Jelmer... the warranty covers corrosion of the exhaust
It seems I did, sorry about that.

Never heard of that, good metallic cats live as long as ceramic ones if we talk about the catalyzing layer(s), the base "mesh" and the outside even live WAY WAY longer.
From what I could understand from the enthusiastic dude on the phone, the inside of the cats have some rare elements in them (which is why they are expensive), which react with the emissions, thus neutralizing them. This reaction is finite and when it's done it's done. This is different from the filters that the diesel engines use, which can simply be heated up to get them clean (i.e., burn all stuff stored inside).

But, then again, I could have mis-understood completely. I think I'll pay a visit to wikipedia later on :)

You never know... most cats i read about that broke on the 500Es, where really "broken". The ceramic layers broke, for whatever reason. Other issues were that they were molten inside, for whatever reasons
Yeah, and from what I've learned, this is not due to age, but indeed due to a wrong fuel mixture, incomplete combustion, etc. You can destroy ANY catalytic converter with a badly running engine. They normally get insanely hot (gonna measure it soon ;)), but when there's unburnt fuel entering the cats which starts burning there, you'll find yourself shopping for new cats quickly.

I'm still waiting on dyno graphs from an M119, before & after.
I'm still planning to do at least the "after" bit, that might tell us something at least.

I'm not interested in cheap small cats and a $100 hack job to weld them in. To do it RIGHT isn't cheap. And there is still not any magical 20-30hp gain!!
Yeah, well, there's a limit to how deep my pockets are. It's not my preferred option, but $2000 for the oem cats is just silly.
 
I agree that the ROI is not on the performance side for sure.
Hagmann cams were 1400€ - 30HP more -> much better ROI on the Performance side.
DBilas regrind cams are around ~700€ IIRC, "his" Profile was 20Nm and 20HP more, he can do the Hagmann Profile for the same price too. -> even better ROI on the Performance side.

My complete offer i have from "H&B Auspufftechnik" for the 500E was 1300€ complete 2 way stainless-steel from the exhaust-manifolds till the end, with X-Pipe (+center bore for O2 sensor), 2x100cell metallic cats, 2-way middle-muffler and 2-way end muffler. Sound-Design as wished by me, as long as its not over 5% louder as the stock dB rating of the car, or it wont get approved by the german TüV.
Now lets just say this exhaust is 10HP more and 10NM Torque more, not much, but i have no a good sounding exhaust system that probably lasts forever. Thats what i think is the real advantage on the Pro side.
 
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