Postby J. M. van Swaay on Mon May 18, 2009 5:41 pm
I posted this problem a few weeks ago in the diagnostic area, thought I'd follow up here before spending lots of money on parts:
1994 E500
119.974 engine
78,000 miles
new engine wire harness
Symptoms:
Intermittent rough running and occasional no start. When no start condition present, engine cranks, fires, but will not continue to run. Ocassional backfire also occurs when no start condition present. When rough running condition present, it is most noticeable at idle?idle speed is however still correct at about 500RPM. Engine smoothes out at higher RPM. Rough running symptom only occurs after a 5-10 minute warm up period, No start condition only occurs on warm/hot restart attempt. Cold start and initial run are 100% normal.
Retrieved a code 18 from pin 17?crankshaft position sensor. Replaced sensor, no fix.
Recheck for codes, none present.
This seems ignition related, it?s almost as if one bank of cylinders is not firing. A few of you have suggested that I might have a failed/failing EZL ($$$$$$$$$$$$$).
Because the problem is intermittent and appears to be temperature dependent, I'm not quite ready to condemn the EZL.
I am considering replacing coils, rotors, caps and wires to see if that fixes the problem. Normally I don?t like to diagnose via part replacement, but I think these are all original so it probably would not be a complete waste if it doesn?t fix the problem. Also, it's been recommend that new coils be installed when installing a new EZL, so, if I end up needing a new EZL this will already be done.
Anything else I might try/consider before spending lots of money on parts?
Thanks,
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Mon May 18, 2009 5:54 pm
Caps and rotors are de rigeur - if they haven't been done in the last 25-30K miles, DO THEM NOW. This is a relatively inexpensive item ($250 in parts) and imperative that it be done regularly -- the E500E seems to go through C&Rs regularly. I've replaced them twice in less than 40K miles of driving the car - and both times it needed them badly due to carbon tracking inside the caps.
Coils really don't go bad much, but generally if they do, they go dead. Your engine won't run. I don't think your coil is the answer. Nor do I think your wires are the issue -- if it was wires, you'd have a shorting condition. Not to say it isn't, but one way to tell obvious shorting is to start your car up in a dark (black) garage and see if you can see any blue external "arcing" of the plug leads to the block -- if yes, then wires. If your C&Rs don't resolve the problem, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is the EZL.
You can check your caps just by removing them and looking for carbon traces on the inside of the caps. If you seen black carbon tracks and/or greenish crap on the inside of the caps, it's time to replace them and the rotors NOW. Based on my own experience with the C&R going "bad" when the engine is warm, I say go there first.
Unfortunately though ... I think you are going to find that your EZL is the issue here.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby Honza on Mon May 18, 2009 6:42 pm
I have problems like these with my 1994 E500 this spring. I wanted to bring it back to life after winter storage and it was running ok when it was cold but 10 minutes after reaching the operating temperature it went completely wrong to very rough idle and very weak acceleration. I have changed the Air-Mass-Meter, upper wiring harness and spark plugs but the problem was not fixed.
Then I have spoken with my friend, who is running a Mercedes Garage in Ireland and he suggested that it should be the problem with backfire in the rotors because he had this problem on one R129 500SL 1 year ago. The main point by the replacing of the rotors with all accesories is that the engine must be at the operating temperature and after removing the old ones with the orange rings at the backwards you have to dry it completely with some kind of hot-air dryier and then mount on the new rings. sealings and rotors. There is a lot of screws which should be screwed up with exact torgue moment.
The parts are :
A 119 158 01 88 x2 EUR 71.13 each
A 020 997 05 48 x2 EUR 2.20 each
A 119 158 02 31 x2 EUR 56 each
A 119 158 01 02 x2 EUR 114 each
and you can see them on the picture on this link. The numbers are 14, 17, 20 and 23
http://www.e500.cz/phpBB3/viewtopic.php ... a&start=10
I hope that it will help because the EZL is very expensive to fix.
Good luck
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby gsxr on Mon May 18, 2009 6:59 pm
I would start by pulling the caps & rotors and inspecting them. If you see carbon tracks and/or greenish residue, you can try cleaning them up. I use a small screwdriver to scrape the crud off the contacts. If they were REALLY crudded up, and cleaning them nice & shiny makes NO difference... then new caps & rotors may not either. But, it may be worth the hour of time prior to shelling out $250+. If they were that bad, I'd expect them to act up more often, not just when warm. I'm really not sure about the coils - I'm not familiar with the failure modes possible. I assume the plugs are clean and are the proper spec.
Unfortunately, I'm thinking along the same lines as Gerry... the EZL is definitely suspect. This is when a spare EZL can come in handy. If you can find someone with a similar car, you could test their EZL in your car (or vice-versa) and see what happens.
EDIT: Later information has shown the EZL either works or it doesn't, for one or both coils/distributors. If the problem is intermittent, the EZL is almost certainly not at fault.
I would absolutely not buy a new EZL unless you had conclusive proof that your current one is bad. New ones are $3k list, best price I know of is about $2100. I just sold one of my spares, I may let another one go as well, it would be less than a third of that if you're interested. Gerry has one for sale also, posted in the classifieds. But first, try to rule out the caps / rotors / wires / coils / etc...
Dave M.
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Tue May 19, 2009 3:27 pm
Thanks for the replies.
Honza, did the new caps, rotors and seals solve your problem?
I removed the caps and rotors, visual inspection shows very slight carbon trace on one of the caps, otherwise they look normal to me. However, I don't really know what normal would look like. So, I have attached two pictures. Should I clean and resinstall or replace?
The epc lists two numbers for my EZL, they are 015 545 61 32 and 015 545 62 32. The one currently in my car is the 61 32. If you have a spare that you are interested in selling please send an email to jmvanswaay@charter.net.
Thanks for all the help.
J. M. van Swaay
PIC00027.JPG
PIC00026.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Tue May 19, 2009 4:56 pm
Those (caps and rotors) should be replaced, looking at your photos.
The main things to look at are the scoring and pitting on the contacts inside the caps, and on the rotors. They look to me bad enough to cause issues.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby Honza on Tue May 19, 2009 8:27 pm
Not yet because I am changing the job now but maybe this week it will run again
Then I have to do the technical check to drive it legal and then there will be the time for installing the beautiful refurbished Brabus Monoblock III 9.5x19 :woot2:
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby Quicksilver500 on Wed May 20, 2009 12:19 am
I had a similar problem and it turned out to be 2 plug wires. Everything was fine and when it got hot I guess it moved and shorted. You can get a cheap multimeter and measure the resistance of the wires. Mine was undetectable until you swung the wire around then the ohms jumped around....spent a lot of time swapping parts and chasing ghosts. At least I knew what cylinders were missing though so I could focus my hunt.
Maybe check the cam sensor? If that is broke it can create a no start because it doesn't know where TDC is so it guesses what to fire, if it guesses right it will start, and if it guesses wrong it won't. Could be a intermittent failure, heat and time do funny things to electronics....
Doesn't really sound like it could be a fuel problem but I guess you never really know.
-Mike
Quicksilver500
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Wed May 20, 2009 2:41 am
Thank you all for the responses so far, it may be a day or two before I get another chance to "play" with the E500. I'll post updates and more information as the problem/solution develops.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Wed May 20, 2009 4:11 am
If it's externally shorting wire(s), you can tell in a dark garage by running the engine. You'll be able to see it arcing in blue sparks. I just dealt with this on my 560SL.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Sat May 23, 2009 3:14 pm
Update:
Haven't had time to pursue this the last few days--work has a way of cutting in to my E500 playtime.
I decided to go ahead with the ignition part replacement plan. I got a litle crazy with the click to buy link, I should have new coils caps rotors plugs and wires sometime next week. I choose the Bosch OEM parts as opposed to the OE. I guess I should have asked if the experts think there is a difference......
Closer inspection did reveal significant erosion on a few of the cap contacts, I think this was the subconscience cause of the click to buy fest.
I know that coils and wires can be checked with an ohmeter, but I have had cases where a cold ohm check was good but the part would still suffer breakdown when hot. Because of my symptoms, I'll just replace it all....
At least now if (or probably when) I replace the EZL, I'll know everything else is up to snuff.
Stay tuned.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gsxr on Sat May 23, 2009 3:24 pm
Sounds like a good plan, JM. Bosch OEM is perfectly fine, I would have done the same if they were less $$$ than OE/dealer items. With all those goodies installed, if the problem is not cured, then you'll know for sure it's the EZL!
:excited:
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:21 pm
Update:
Box of parts came last week--installed caps and rotors only, symptoms have not reocurred after 4 drive cycles.
During the course of disconnecting/reconnecting coil wires, I noticed a small pool of power steering fluid at a low point of the coil wires about half way between the coils and the left distributer cap. The two coil wires were in contact with each other and formed a small crescent shaped holding pool. I previously replaced the short piece of hose between the top of the power steering pump and the reservoir because of a slight seep. I thought I had cleaned up all the fluid from the leak but I obvioulsy missed this.
Is it possible that this little pool of fluid was responsible for my misfire/rough running condition? It seems to make sense because my symptoms appeared to be associated with a whole bank as opposed to a single cylinder. Is it possible that when one coil was trying to fire, the other was providing a "leak to ground" through the conductivity of the power steering fluid pool?
I'm a little annoyed at myself for not seeing this earlier...................but I'll be happy if it is now fixed. Another 25 drive cycles and I might be convinced.......
Thanks for everyones input.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby Honza on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:37 pm
I have changed the rotors and plastic rings today and the problem is solved :woot2:
The old rotors and plastic rings were really worn out and there were many black places on them because of the backfire. The rings were quite wet so I undestand now why the ignition didn?t work after reaching the operating temperature.
Now is it fixed :excited:
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby gerryvz on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:56 pm
Glad that the analysis of thecap and rotors insulator was correct and helped solve your problem.
I'm on my third set of caps and rotors in less than 40K miles (admittedly, I until recently lived in a rather wet climate which IMHO contributed to the fairly early demise of the C&Rs due to moisture) so I've experienced what you did and my mechanic shop showed me many examples of M119 bad C&Rs in their shop.
ADMIN EDIT: Later information has shown that bad insulators "kill" new caps & rotors; or possibly new caps & rotors will temporarily overcome faulty insulators. If a car seems to "need"
new caps+rotors in a very short time (or miles), it is extremely likely the insulators are the root cause. Klink detailed in later threads that cars which came to the dealer seemingly needing new caps & rotors every 6 months, immediately stopped eating caps/rotors once the insulators were replaced.
Cheers,
Gerry
I posted this problem a few weeks ago in the diagnostic area, thought I'd follow up here before spending lots of money on parts:
1994 E500
119.974 engine
78,000 miles
new engine wire harness
Symptoms:
Intermittent rough running and occasional no start. When no start condition present, engine cranks, fires, but will not continue to run. Ocassional backfire also occurs when no start condition present. When rough running condition present, it is most noticeable at idle?idle speed is however still correct at about 500RPM. Engine smoothes out at higher RPM. Rough running symptom only occurs after a 5-10 minute warm up period, No start condition only occurs on warm/hot restart attempt. Cold start and initial run are 100% normal.
Retrieved a code 18 from pin 17?crankshaft position sensor. Replaced sensor, no fix.
Recheck for codes, none present.
This seems ignition related, it?s almost as if one bank of cylinders is not firing. A few of you have suggested that I might have a failed/failing EZL ($$$$$$$$$$$$$).
Because the problem is intermittent and appears to be temperature dependent, I'm not quite ready to condemn the EZL.
I am considering replacing coils, rotors, caps and wires to see if that fixes the problem. Normally I don?t like to diagnose via part replacement, but I think these are all original so it probably would not be a complete waste if it doesn?t fix the problem. Also, it's been recommend that new coils be installed when installing a new EZL, so, if I end up needing a new EZL this will already be done.
Anything else I might try/consider before spending lots of money on parts?
Thanks,
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Mon May 18, 2009 5:54 pm
Caps and rotors are de rigeur - if they haven't been done in the last 25-30K miles, DO THEM NOW. This is a relatively inexpensive item ($250 in parts) and imperative that it be done regularly -- the E500E seems to go through C&Rs regularly. I've replaced them twice in less than 40K miles of driving the car - and both times it needed them badly due to carbon tracking inside the caps.
Coils really don't go bad much, but generally if they do, they go dead. Your engine won't run. I don't think your coil is the answer. Nor do I think your wires are the issue -- if it was wires, you'd have a shorting condition. Not to say it isn't, but one way to tell obvious shorting is to start your car up in a dark (black) garage and see if you can see any blue external "arcing" of the plug leads to the block -- if yes, then wires. If your C&Rs don't resolve the problem, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is the EZL.
You can check your caps just by removing them and looking for carbon traces on the inside of the caps. If you seen black carbon tracks and/or greenish crap on the inside of the caps, it's time to replace them and the rotors NOW. Based on my own experience with the C&R going "bad" when the engine is warm, I say go there first.
Unfortunately though ... I think you are going to find that your EZL is the issue here.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby Honza on Mon May 18, 2009 6:42 pm
I have problems like these with my 1994 E500 this spring. I wanted to bring it back to life after winter storage and it was running ok when it was cold but 10 minutes after reaching the operating temperature it went completely wrong to very rough idle and very weak acceleration. I have changed the Air-Mass-Meter, upper wiring harness and spark plugs but the problem was not fixed.
Then I have spoken with my friend, who is running a Mercedes Garage in Ireland and he suggested that it should be the problem with backfire in the rotors because he had this problem on one R129 500SL 1 year ago. The main point by the replacing of the rotors with all accesories is that the engine must be at the operating temperature and after removing the old ones with the orange rings at the backwards you have to dry it completely with some kind of hot-air dryier and then mount on the new rings. sealings and rotors. There is a lot of screws which should be screwed up with exact torgue moment.
The parts are :
A 119 158 01 88 x2 EUR 71.13 each
A 020 997 05 48 x2 EUR 2.20 each
A 119 158 02 31 x2 EUR 56 each
A 119 158 01 02 x2 EUR 114 each
and you can see them on the picture on this link. The numbers are 14, 17, 20 and 23
http://www.e500.cz/phpBB3/viewtopic.php ... a&start=10
I hope that it will help because the EZL is very expensive to fix.
Good luck
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby gsxr on Mon May 18, 2009 6:59 pm
I would start by pulling the caps & rotors and inspecting them. If you see carbon tracks and/or greenish residue, you can try cleaning them up. I use a small screwdriver to scrape the crud off the contacts. If they were REALLY crudded up, and cleaning them nice & shiny makes NO difference... then new caps & rotors may not either. But, it may be worth the hour of time prior to shelling out $250+. If they were that bad, I'd expect them to act up more often, not just when warm. I'm really not sure about the coils - I'm not familiar with the failure modes possible. I assume the plugs are clean and are the proper spec.
Unfortunately, I'm thinking along the same lines as Gerry... the EZL is definitely suspect. This is when a spare EZL can come in handy. If you can find someone with a similar car, you could test their EZL in your car (or vice-versa) and see what happens.
EDIT: Later information has shown the EZL either works or it doesn't, for one or both coils/distributors. If the problem is intermittent, the EZL is almost certainly not at fault.
I would absolutely not buy a new EZL unless you had conclusive proof that your current one is bad. New ones are $3k list, best price I know of is about $2100. I just sold one of my spares, I may let another one go as well, it would be less than a third of that if you're interested. Gerry has one for sale also, posted in the classifieds. But first, try to rule out the caps / rotors / wires / coils / etc...
Dave M.
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Tue May 19, 2009 3:27 pm
Thanks for the replies.
Honza, did the new caps, rotors and seals solve your problem?
I removed the caps and rotors, visual inspection shows very slight carbon trace on one of the caps, otherwise they look normal to me. However, I don't really know what normal would look like. So, I have attached two pictures. Should I clean and resinstall or replace?
The epc lists two numbers for my EZL, they are 015 545 61 32 and 015 545 62 32. The one currently in my car is the 61 32. If you have a spare that you are interested in selling please send an email to jmvanswaay@charter.net.
Thanks for all the help.
J. M. van Swaay
PIC00027.JPG
PIC00026.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Tue May 19, 2009 4:56 pm
Those (caps and rotors) should be replaced, looking at your photos.
The main things to look at are the scoring and pitting on the contacts inside the caps, and on the rotors. They look to me bad enough to cause issues.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby Honza on Tue May 19, 2009 8:27 pm
Not yet because I am changing the job now but maybe this week it will run again
Then I have to do the technical check to drive it legal and then there will be the time for installing the beautiful refurbished Brabus Monoblock III 9.5x19 :woot2:
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby Quicksilver500 on Wed May 20, 2009 12:19 am
I had a similar problem and it turned out to be 2 plug wires. Everything was fine and when it got hot I guess it moved and shorted. You can get a cheap multimeter and measure the resistance of the wires. Mine was undetectable until you swung the wire around then the ohms jumped around....spent a lot of time swapping parts and chasing ghosts. At least I knew what cylinders were missing though so I could focus my hunt.
Maybe check the cam sensor? If that is broke it can create a no start because it doesn't know where TDC is so it guesses what to fire, if it guesses right it will start, and if it guesses wrong it won't. Could be a intermittent failure, heat and time do funny things to electronics....
Doesn't really sound like it could be a fuel problem but I guess you never really know.
-Mike
Quicksilver500
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Wed May 20, 2009 2:41 am
Thank you all for the responses so far, it may be a day or two before I get another chance to "play" with the E500. I'll post updates and more information as the problem/solution develops.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gerryvz on Wed May 20, 2009 4:11 am
If it's externally shorting wire(s), you can tell in a dark garage by running the engine. You'll be able to see it arcing in blue sparks. I just dealt with this on my 560SL.
Cheers,
Gerry
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Sat May 23, 2009 3:14 pm
Update:
Haven't had time to pursue this the last few days--work has a way of cutting in to my E500 playtime.
I decided to go ahead with the ignition part replacement plan. I got a litle crazy with the click to buy link, I should have new coils caps rotors plugs and wires sometime next week. I choose the Bosch OEM parts as opposed to the OE. I guess I should have asked if the experts think there is a difference......
Closer inspection did reveal significant erosion on a few of the cap contacts, I think this was the subconscience cause of the click to buy fest.
I know that coils and wires can be checked with an ohmeter, but I have had cases where a cold ohm check was good but the part would still suffer breakdown when hot. Because of my symptoms, I'll just replace it all....
At least now if (or probably when) I replace the EZL, I'll know everything else is up to snuff.
Stay tuned.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby gsxr on Sat May 23, 2009 3:24 pm
Sounds like a good plan, JM. Bosch OEM is perfectly fine, I would have done the same if they were less $$$ than OE/dealer items. With all those goodies installed, if the problem is not cured, then you'll know for sure it's the EZL!
:excited:
================================
Postby J. M. van Swaay on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:21 pm
Update:
Box of parts came last week--installed caps and rotors only, symptoms have not reocurred after 4 drive cycles.
During the course of disconnecting/reconnecting coil wires, I noticed a small pool of power steering fluid at a low point of the coil wires about half way between the coils and the left distributer cap. The two coil wires were in contact with each other and formed a small crescent shaped holding pool. I previously replaced the short piece of hose between the top of the power steering pump and the reservoir because of a slight seep. I thought I had cleaned up all the fluid from the leak but I obvioulsy missed this.
Is it possible that this little pool of fluid was responsible for my misfire/rough running condition? It seems to make sense because my symptoms appeared to be associated with a whole bank as opposed to a single cylinder. Is it possible that when one coil was trying to fire, the other was providing a "leak to ground" through the conductivity of the power steering fluid pool?
I'm a little annoyed at myself for not seeing this earlier...................but I'll be happy if it is now fixed. Another 25 drive cycles and I might be convinced.......
Thanks for everyones input.
J. M. van Swaay
================================
Postby Honza on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:37 pm
I have changed the rotors and plastic rings today and the problem is solved :woot2:
The old rotors and plastic rings were really worn out and there were many black places on them because of the backfire. The rings were quite wet so I undestand now why the ignition didn?t work after reaching the operating temperature.
Now is it fixed :excited:
Honza
------------------------------
1994 E500 Limited Saphire/Grey
------------------------------
http://www.e500.cz/
================================
Postby gerryvz on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:56 pm
Glad that the analysis of the
I'm on my third set of caps and rotors in less than 40K miles (admittedly, I until recently lived in a rather wet climate which IMHO contributed to the fairly early demise of the C&Rs due to moisture) so I've experienced what you did and my mechanic shop showed me many examples of M119 bad C&Rs in their shop.
ADMIN EDIT: Later information has shown that bad insulators "kill" new caps & rotors; or possibly new caps & rotors will temporarily overcome faulty insulators. If a car seems to "need"
new caps+rotors in a very short time (or miles), it is extremely likely the insulators are the root cause. Klink detailed in later threads that cars which came to the dealer seemingly needing new caps & rotors every 6 months, immediately stopped eating caps/rotors once the insulators were replaced.
Cheers,
Gerry
