OWNER 744Brilliantsilber (E420)

[744Brillantsilber]

@gerryvz and @gsxr: Good points!

What does a good E500E with around 130000 miles cost in the US?
21k would apply for a 1990 car only. Plus the famous 5000 dollar maintainance and registration fees...

The E500E is well known in my area. Not so much of a sleeper than in the US. A E420 is probably the perfect sleeper car, even more with a 5.0 and a "E220" or "E200D" badge on the trunk

The import discussion is very interessting, and I could sell the 420 back to the previous owner in a minute. He already emailed me how much he regrets selling it. I have full documentation back to the 1990s, and only 130000 miles on it. The car spend half of its life in Switzerland. Probably was not beaten there. You know how strict the Swiss are, right?

But I love to work on it and learn things while doing it. That is what I look foreward to! It will take years, but I knew that too.
Good E420 are between 17-20k Euros here. If I end up with 25000 or a bit morew with sth better than good, I am totally ok with it.

Right now, this .034 is not going anywhere!

 

[Jlaa]

Good E420 are between 17-20k Euros here. If I end up with 25000 or a bit morew with sth better than good, I am totally ok with it.

Wow. Here in the USA, good E420s are not sold for this kind of pricing! Much less. Maybe 1/3 to 1/4?

 

[LWB250]

Wow. Here in the USA, good E420s are not sold for this kind of pricing! Much less. Maybe 1/3 to 1/4?

For example, I recently bought a 1995 420E from a member here last month with 130k miles on it that is in very good condition mechanically, needs paint on the roof, however (a full repaint, really.) $USD 1500.

Two years ago I bought a 1992 420E with 260k miles on it, excellent mechanically (things like the suspension had been rebuilt with OE parts) and cosmetically for the most part, $USD 800.

There are certainly more expensive examples in equal or better condition, but these cars aren't valued here as I don't think most people know what they are or understand their performance abilities. I think they're often lumped in with the more plebeian 300E, which is pretty much a commodity sort of car since there were so many of them.

Dan

 

[gsxr]

124.034's are very low value in USA, with rare exceptions. $2-$4k will get you a reasonably nice one. Absolute best bargain of all 124's right now, IMO. Fabulous daily drivers for that money.

I can't believe they are fetching over €15k in Europe, I assume with under 200kkm on the odo. To get that price in USA it would have to be more like under 50,000km's and look factory new.

 

[TimL]

124.034's are very low value in USA, with rare exceptions. $2-$4k will get you a reasonably nice one. Absolute best bargain of all 124's right now, IMO. Fabulous daily drivers for that money.

I can't believe they are fetching over €15k in Europe, I assume with under 200kkm on the odo. To get that price in USA it would have to be more like under 50,000km's and look factory new.

124.034 were very rare in Germany compared to their relative abundance in the U.S.. In addition, many of these German cars disappeared into Eastern European markets into which they were sold when they were exchanging hand for the 3rd or 4th time. Those never came back, so you are looking at a comparatively small pool of cars, explaining the price difference to U.S. cars. Finding one that hasn’t been beaten to death or is a total rust bucket is impossible if you don’t spend some serious money, as 744 is correctly pointing out.

 

[TimL]

@gerryvz and @gsxr: Good points!

What does a good E500E with around 130000 miles cost in the US?
21k would apply for a 1990 car only. Plus the famous 5000 dollar maintainance and registration fees...

The E500E is well known in my area. Not so much of a sleeper than in the US. A E420 is probably the perfect sleeper car, even more with a 5.0 and a "E220" or "E200D" badge on the trunk

The import discussion is very interessting, and I could sell the 420 back to the previous owner in a minute. He already emailed me how much he regrets selling it. I have full documentation back to the 1990s, and only 130000 miles on it. The car spend half of its life in Switzerland. Probably was not beaten there. You know how strict the Swiss are, right?

But I love to work on it and learn things while doing it. That is what I look foreward to! It will take years, but I knew that too.
Good E420 are between 17-20k Euros here. If I end up with 25000 or a bit morew with sth better than good, I am totally ok with it.

Right now, this .034 is not going anywhere!

I think you are doing the right thing 744- you got a super solid 034 and you’re going to improve on that instead of buying an expensive German 036 and then not really knowing what “surprises” that car will hold. Best of luck with your build! Way more realistic than some of the other, cough, cough, “adventurous” projects that have been discussed on this Forum recently.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

For example, I recently bought a 1995 420E from a member here last month with 130k miles on it that is in very good condition mechanically, needs paint on the roof, however (a full repaint, really.) $USD 1500.

Two years ago I bought a 1992 420E with 260k miles on it, excellent mechanically (things like the suspension had been rebuilt with OE parts) and cosmetically for the most part, $USD 800.

There are certainly more expensive examples in equal or better condition, but these cars aren't valued here as I don't think most people know what they are or understand their performance abilities. I think they're often lumped in with the more plebeian 300E, which is pretty much a commodity sort of car since there were so many of them.

Dan

Wow, your car is a great platform for a project! 1500$ is a great price for sure, congratulations
Seeing the super low prices in the US, it is great how owners like you put in serious money to keep them rolling and improve (EDIT: restore) time!!

124.034 were very rare in Germany compared to their relative abundance in the U.S.. In addition, many of these German cars disappeared into Eastern European markets into which they were sold when they were exchanging hand for the 3rd or 4th time. Those never came back, so you are looking at a comparatively small pool of cars, explaining the price difference to U.S. cars. Finding one that hasn’t been beaten to death or is a total rust bucket is impossible if you don’t spend some serious money, as 744 is correctly pointing out.

You are correct! First, even when new most big engined W124s went overseas.
After Eastern Europe opened up, many went there too. And during the financial crisis 2008/2009 the German government supported wrecking used cars in exchange of buying a new one, to help keep the car companies going.
It is a shame to know how many good cars must been destroyed there, and are gone forever!

 

[LWB250]

Wow, your car is a great platform for a project! 1500$ is a great price for sure, congratulations
Seeing the super low prices in the US, it is great how owners like you put in serious money to keep them rolling and improve time!!

It is a project. A project to get back to as close to being 100% original. That's my thing, I'm a purist. While others look to see how they can put bigger brakes and lowered springs and all that, I believe it's more important to keep a car as close to it's original condition or configuration as possible. That, and everything should work. Even the cigarette lighters in my cars work, but to the best of my knowledge none have ever been smoked in. And the light that's in the back of the ash tray, too. That works.

I'm not critical of those who wish to do otherwise with their cars - it's their car to do with as they please. There are a lot of modifications I see and can appreciate, but I just like stock, the way the builders designed it to be.

Dan

 

[gsxr]

Why aren't Germans importing all the dirt-cheap .034's from USA?

 

[LWB250]

Why aren't Germans importing all the dirt-cheap .034's from USA?

Good point. They're having no problems vacuuming up a lot of the older cars like my former W111.

Dan

 

[744Brillantsilber]

It is a project. A project to get back to as close to being 100% original. That's my thing, I'm a purist. While others look to see how they can put bigger brakes and lowered springs and all that, I believe it's more important to keep a car as close to it's original condition or configuration as possible. That, and everything should work. Even the cigarette lighters in my cars work, but to the best of my knowledge none have ever been smoked in. And the light that's in the back of the ash tray, too. That works.

I'm not critical of those who wish to do otherwise with their cars - it's their car to do with as they please. There are a lot of modifications I see and can appreciate, but I just like stock, the way the builders designed it to be.

Dan

It is a great project, and your documentation is very nice!
I fixed my previous post. I meant "improving the condition", not only upgrading it.

Why aren't Germans importing all the dirt-cheap .034's from USA?

Good point. They're having no problems vacuuming up a lot of the older cars like my former W111.

Dan

We do. Especially dealers in Northern Germany close to the harbors. Not many reimported W124s around in southern Germany.
They sell low mileage US-imports for 15000 Euros and more. Since they are younger than 30 years, import costs are quite high, and saddly US-spec cars got some slight second options (smaller brakes, ugly looking headlights, "wrong" trunk lid, "real" keys...; all off course second options imho only).
Plus many US-spec cars have different wiring and parts, which makes it harder to find replacement parts or do diagnostics (e.g. on R07s).
Most reimported cars are older than 30 years for given reason. LOTS of W198 Gullwings and Roadsters, W111s, W113 Pagodes and even R107s are US imports!

 

[Kyiv]

As far as 0.34s. There were about 15,500 imported to US. Since early 2010s its prices stabilized around $2-4000. Since it's wasn't meant to become a classic like 500E, unless owned by the "eccentric" types of @LWB250 and myself, most went to a wrecking yard as soon as a $1000+ repair was needed. This attrition scenario has been playing out for 8-10 years. With only 15,500 cars and 25 years since the last one was built, my guess is that finding a decent 400E is, probably, more difficult than a 500E because:

1. Non-enthusiast general public who were original and 2nd owners who kept up on most of the maintenance has let these go some time ago.
2. The few enthusiasts who covered most of deferred maintenance won't sell them because they aren't worth enough to cover even 1/3 of the investment

Last few times I searched eBay or car gurus for 400E/E420, there were either non for sale or one that's in a semi-murdered state. There are a lot more people willing to invest in 500Es, because it can be resold for decent money down the road

*The usual caveat: I'm not suggesting that 400E is anything resembling the specialness of a 500E

 

[744Brillantsilber]

As far as 0.34s. There were about 15,500 imported to US. Since early 2010s its prices stabilized around $2-4000. Since it's wasn't meant to become a classic like 500E, unless owned by the "eccentric" types of @LWB250 and myself, most went to a wrecking yard as soon as a $1000+ repair was needed. This attrition scenario has been playing out for 8-10 years. With only 15,500 cars and 25 years since the last one was built, my guess is that finding a decent 400E is, probably, more difficult than a 500E because:

1. Non-enthusiast general public who were original and 2nd owners who kept up on most of the maintenance has let these go some time ago.
2. The few enthusiasts who covered most of deferred maintenance won't sell them because they aren't worth enough to cover even 1/3 of the investment

Last few times I searched eBay or car gurus for 400E/E420, there were either non for sale or one that's in a semi-murdered state. There are a lot more people willing to invest in 500Es, because it can be resold for decent money down the road

*The usual caveat: I'm not suggesting that 400E is anything resembling the specialness of a 500E

15,500 is about half of the whole production! Then add Japan, the rest of Asia and the rest of Europe.
They never were that cheap here. But I know a guy who bought a good one with 60000miles for 6000 Euros 10 years ago. A common price back then.
Similar than in the US, most .034 were beaten to dead as cheap powerful Mercedes, exported, or rusted away.
Prices started rising in the last 3-5 years. And yes, good E500E are easier to buy over here too.

The E500E always was sth. special! No discussion about that (not only because this is the 500eboard )
In retroperspective the .036 and the W201 Evo1/2 started Mercedes current direction, beeing the first sporty middleclass sedans to compete with BMW and others.

 

[Kyiv]

Total 400E/E420 produced was 22,802. Americans gobbled up 3/4 of the whole production

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[gerryvz]

my guess is that finding a decent 400E is, probably, more difficult than a 500E because:

I've seen 15-20 .034s in the wrecking yards over the past 10-12 years - just in Houston and Baltimore alone. Never seen an E500E yet. Just based on sheer numbers imported, .034s are always going to be MUCH more common and available. There was close to 10x the number of .034s brought into the US.

 

[Kyiv]

I've seen 15-20 .034s in the wrecking yards over the past 10-12 years - just in Houston and Baltimore alone. Never seen an E500E yet.

That is exactly my point! I just draw a different conclusion from it than you

 

[LWB250]

It is a great project, and your documentation is very nice!
I fixed my previous post. I meant "improving the condition", not only upgrading it.

No offense taken, believe me. I'm a purist, but I don't project that onto others. I will say that it does sadden me when I see a nice car get chopped and lowered, or someone drops a 350 Chevy short block into a W108, but that's the owner's choice and reflects their vision of what the car should be.

One of your fellow countrymen bought my 1965 220SEb W111 last August for outrageous money ($USD 14700) and had it shipped back to the Fatherland. I presume that was a bargain for the car in Germany, but in my mind it was about $USD 5000 more than it was worth here. However, I'm happy and he was happy, so that's all that matters, I guess.

Dan

 

[Kyiv]

I'm a purist

I'm going to put you on the spot here. What are you going to do about wrong-for-E420 struts that are currently on your car, Martha?

 

[LWB250]

I'm going to put you on the spot here. What are you going to do about wrong-for-E420 struts that are currently on your car, Martha?

That's OK, I don't mind.

I'm not so OCD about my cars that I would replace things if they're working OK. The minute they're not I'll put the proper ones on it. I'm also a realist in that I'm not going to go around replacing stuff just for the sake of being original or correct. That's silly and a big waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere to replace or improve things that need it.

However, I would make an exception if I found a URO part somewhere. Don't want that garbage touching my cars.

As I spend more time with the car and my initial outlay for repairs and "make right" items that are critical have been dealt with I'll consider swapping them.

I said "purist", not concours. That would require immediate replacement. My cars are drivers, not garage queens.

Dan

 

[Jlaa]

Dan, I mean Martha, I'm not fond of your new look. What's with 2 makeovers in as many days?


This second makeover is much less flattering. Anyways, your extracurriculars have been getting quite provocative lately.

 

[LWB250]

Too many people giving me a hard time about Martha. I was looking for something unique and I settled on Morty Junior from my favorite Rick and Morty episode, "Raising Gazorpgazorp".

It's temporary, don't worry. I'm just playing around.

Dan

 

[Rouven036]

Welcome to the board. Quite strange story with YOUR TÜV guy.
- the Kaltlaufregler, is it from GAT? If so it is available for the 500 engine too, you would just need a new set of documents to proof or a discussion with the TÜV guy
I basically installed it without connecting it, just hiding the cables, the emissions are anyways only measured when the engine is in operating temperature! After I got it entered, I removed it and sold it on.... No one ever looked after it in the inspections
Further, you won't be able to see any difference in the emission results in between a 4 or 5 l engine. They fullfill the same standards and the gas quantity isn't measured anyways. Just your catalytic converters should be proper working condition.
- silver arrow brakes shouldn't be an issue either since the modification was doable within the first 10 years (maybe on the edge of it depending on your individual vehicles date of manufacture but definitely within this 10 years looking at the overall w124 production time
- standard brakes, if you have the 320mm front brakes, these are available on the 500 too (not considering the switching mc etc now, because I would also clearly recommend not to touch that) are the rears on your car still the 27xmm or already 300mm? As the guys stated, then change to 300mm rears and if your TÜV guy argues and still talks about the smaller brakes, then maybe search for another TÜV station.
The 320mm brakes are way better, especially noticeable on the highway...
Other than that good luck with the restoration and welcome to the board.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

No offense taken, believe me. I'm a purist, but I don't project that onto others. I will say that it does sadden me when I see a nice car get chopped and lowered, or someone drops a 350 Chevy short block into a W108, but that's the owner's choice and reflects their vision of what the car should be.

One of your fellow countrymen bought my 1965 220SEb W111 last August for outrageous money ($USD 14700) and had it shipped back to the Fatherland. I presume that was a bargain for the car in Germany, but in my mind it was about $USD 5000 more than it was worth here. However, I'm happy and he was happy, so that's all that matters, I guess.

Dan

I hear you! I only want to change things that can be redone with plug and play. Everything else is a sacrilege in my eyes.
220SEb are great cars, especially with a manual gearbox. Good ones start at 30k here, so both of you done a good deal imo!

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Welcome to the board. Quite strange story with YOUR TÜV guy.
- the Kaltlaufregler, is it from GAT? If so it is available for the 500 engine too, you would just need a new set of documents to proof or a discussion with the TÜV guy
I basically installed it without connecting it, just hiding the cables, the emissions are anyways only measured when the engine is in operating temperature! After I got it entered, I removed it and sold it on.... No one ever looked after it in the inspections
Further, you won't be able to see any difference in the emission results in between a 4 or 5 l engine. They fullfill the same standards and the gas quantity isn't measured anyways. Just your catalytic converters should be proper working condition.
- silver arrow brakes shouldn't be an issue either since the modification was doable within the first 10 years (maybe on the edge of it depending on your individual vehicles date of manufacture but definitely within this 10 years looking at the overall w124 production time
- standard brakes, if you have the 320mm front brakes, these are available on the 500 too (not considering the switching mc etc now, because I would also clearly recommend not to touch that) are the rears on your car still the 27xmm or already 300mm? As the guys stated, then change to 300mm rears and if your TÜV guy argues and still talks about the smaller brakes, then maybe search for another TÜV station.
The 320mm brakes are way better, especially noticeable on the highway...
Other than that good luck with the restoration and welcome to the board.

Thank you very much Rouven!

He is the only one around willing to entry this engine-swap.
All others I contacted eighter said they don´t do it or did not answer the request at all!

-There are Kaltlaufregler for the 500 too, that is no problem. I just prefer getting rid of it. I know the emissions are measured with operating temprature. Just unplug it is plan B. But why do that, if I can do it legal? It does not matter regarding tax in 4 years anyway.

-Yes, someone pointed that out earlier too. That should be no problem!

-The problem with Silver Arrows is that they never were tested from MB together with the Master Cylinder etc. mounted in the .034. If he enters them and something fails, he is responsible! I can see his point there.
Beeing introduced in 1998, the Silver Arrows are in the 10-year range for all V8 W124s.

-I agree that it is a joke to downgrade the front brakes. I laughed hard about that! The rears were always 278mm as far as I know.
But since he can made responsible, he wants a full .036 system right now. There must be a better solution for sure.

 

[Kyiv]

The 320mm brakes are way better, especially noticeable on the highway...

I might (easily) be wrong, but don't larger brakes dissipate heat better for less brake fade, without improving braking power/distance/effort? Therefore, with the air flow at highway speeds, they'd be indistinguishable from smaller brakes, assuming identical pad material. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Rouven036]

@kiev, the heat dissipation and the increase of the friction ring diameter (leverage) makes the difference. The difference from 300mm to 320mm brakes on a hard braking from let's say 200km/h you fell the difference quite alot. Under normal driving conditions there is no difference noticeable.

At 744, in deed, in 2 years the whole emissions story is anyway obsolete also for my car. Unless our bright minds in the government change the Historic vehicle regulations. Like the latest issues discussed not ban bikes on Sundays and national holidays...

See for the TÜV guy, that's what I ment... If he is a TÜV engineer (not only a regular inspector) he is allowed to approof such modifications, depending on his judging. I had till now 2 vehicles with modified brakes, my corrado with 993 turbo brakes and my 500. Both were tested by the engineer and then everything entered into the documents. Not really an issue. All about the qualification level and taking over responsibility.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

@kiev, the heat dissipation and the increase of the friction ring diameter (leverage) makes the difference. The difference from 300mm to 320mm brakes on a hard braking from let's say 200km/h you fell the difference quite alot. Under normal driving conditions there is no difference noticeable.

At 744, in deed, in 2 years the whole emissions story is anyway obsolete also for my car. Unless our bright minds in the government change the Historic vehicle regulations. Like the latest issues discussed not ban bikes on Sundays and national holidays...

See for the TÜV guy, that's what I ment... If he is a TÜV engineer (not only a regular inspector) he is allowed to approof such modifications, depending on his judging. I had till now 2 vehicles with modified brakes, my corrado with 993 turbo brakes and my 500. Both were tested by the engineer and then everything entered into the documents. Not really an issue. All about the qualification level and taking over responsibility.

Oh yes, the government in Germany and BW. No comment about that!
Yes, he is an engineer, and allowed to do this entries. He seems very interested, but such mods on W124s are not common.
I think the problem is more in taking responsibility for sth. he is not very familiar with.

 

[Kyiv]

the heat dissipation and the increase of the friction ring diameter (leverage) makes the difference. The difference from 300mm to 320mm brakes on a hard braking from let's say 200km/h you fell the difference quite alot. Under normal driving conditions there is no difference noticeable.

What exactly is that difference? A firmer pedal, and/or more immediate response from the brake pedal? There's that saying that brakes stop the wheel, and tires stop the car. Either of the brake sizes is cable, with a strong mash of a pedal to activate ABS with the stickiest tires on, so ultimate braking power/speed scrabbling/stopping distance should be the same, no? I'm trying to learn, not to prove a pont. I've only ever driven one W124

 

[744Brillantsilber]

What exactly is that difference? A firmer pedal, and/or more immediate response from the brake pedal? There's that saying that brakes stop the wheel, and tires stop the car. Either of the brake sizes is cable, with a strong mash of a pedal to activate ABS with the stickiest tires on, so ultimate braking power/speed scrabbling/stopping distance should be the same, no? I'm trying to learn, not to prove a pont. I've only ever driven one W124

If you have a smaller brake disc diameter (of course with everything else beeing the same, same materials, both cooled disks...), the smaller brake gains more temprature than a bigger brake disc during long and/or hard braking.

The small brake has a smaller diameter, so less surface working as a heat exchange.

With rising temprature, your brakes friction coefficient between pad and disk gets lower (again depending on the used materials). The brake power is reduced and our stopping distance extends.

This has nothing to do with ABS. The ABS keeps you from overbraking and locking the tires and reduces brake pressure, when the tires are close to locking and keeps them spinning. Only a spinning tire is able to transfer forces between the car and the road.

You are right, that good tires are needed for good braking! A bigger brake is kind of useless, if your tire can not bring the brake power to the road.

 

[Kyiv]

@744Brillantsilber, my current understanding, that I've stated in my one before previous post, is that larger brake discs only resist fade better, but do not improve stopping distance. Our friend @Rouven036, stated that larger brakes make a noticeable difference at highway speeds, which is were in my current understanding, there should be least (if any) noticeable difference. That's why I asked him to zoom in on the differences he, or anyone else with brake upgrades, felt. I'm interested in learning

 

[744Brillantsilber]

@kiev My bad, I misunderstood a part of your post (English is not my mother tongue)!
Sorry!

 

[gsxr]

Larger diameter rotors can provide more brake torque (more stopping power), however there must be enough grip from the tires to translate this into reduced stopping distance. Large brakes with bad tires won't stop in a short distance, likewise small brakes with sticky tires also won't... you need both combined. As speeds increase, the brake size (and pad swept area) generally becomes more important than tire grip.

EDIT: I forgot the critical 3rd piece of the puzzle: Appropriate pad compound. Need all 3!

 

[Kyiv]

My bad, I misunderstood a part of your post (English is not my mother tongue)

I can totally relate. As you can guess English is not my mother language either. And I live in America. For example, more than once I've ordered "China green tea" at Starbucks, only to receive mocha frapucino instead. Learned to double-check if my order is understood correctly and now with occasional regulatory, some people think I'm being demeaning to them - they think I question their basic ability to comprehend a basic order . It doesn't help that many Americans, out of politeness (and fear of offending) pretend they understood me and don't re-clarify if they understood me correctly

As speeds increase, the brake size (and pad swept area) generally becomes more important than tire grip.

Dave, do unpack! Assuming standard 16 inch or even 17 inch wheels with stickiest street tires on an 500E. Either smaller, or later larger rotors can easily lock the tire up. So then, isn't the only benefit of larger rotor on later cars is higher resistance to fade, and not a shorter stopping distance? Thanks

 

[Rouven036]

Exactly as gsxr mentioned and what I just briefly described with the word "leverage".
I m now just texting what I had left from the original brakes types in mind, so don't beat me up if I m not right on the brake pads:
As said, if I m not mistaken, the brake pads on the 320/300mm brakes are the same, but through the greater radius where the brake force (torque basically) will attack on, the brake force is higher at the SAME amount of pressure.
The heat dissipation will come I. On high speed breaking, where the bigger disc can take on more heat due to its a (primary) : bigger mass and b (secondary) : (not immediate effect but needed as a result of a) bigger surface area resulting in better cooling.
The brake force is limited due to the friction between road and tire.
As stickier the tire, as more brake force you can crwate but at the same time as well increase the heat generation by far.

When I used to slow down from high speeds, then usually you can feel that the brakes get at their limits by heat dissipation. This expresses usually in a howling/rough noise from the brakes and comes along with the fading where you feel a reduced deceleration when keeping the pedal pressure at the same level.
The 320mm brakes do there a much better job. Not perfect but much better.
On the other side, I didn't feel any difference while changing later to the 300mm rears. Then, again with the amg brakes, it's a different level (from high speeds only) no fading no howling nothing. On city speeds it is not noticeable.
Pedal feel changed only while changing to stainless braided hoses.

 

[Jlaa]

I can totally relate. As you can guess English is not my mother language either. And I live in America. For example, more than once I've ordered "China green tea" at Starbucks, only to receive mocha frapucino instead. Learned to double-check if my order is understood correctly and now with occasional regulatory, some people think I'm being demeaning to them - they think I question their basic ability to comprehend a basic order . It doesn't help that many Americans, out of politeness (and fear of offending) pretend they understood me and don't re-clarify if they understood me correctly



Dave, do unpack! Assuming standard 16 inch or even 17 inch wheels with stickiest street tires on an 500E. Either smaller, or later larger rotors can easily lock the tire up. So then, isn't the only benefit of larger rotor on later cars is higher resistance to fade, and not a shorter stopping distance? Thanks

My understanding (as non-expert) is that increased pad size and increased rotor diameter (more leverage) also allows for better modulation right below the point of lockup. Since one can more be more fine grained and get closer to lockup without locking up, I think this is supposed to translate into improved braking.

 

[gsxr]

Dave, do unpack! Assuming standard 16 inch or even 17 inch wheels with stickiest street tires on an 500E. Either smaller, or later larger rotors can easily lock the tire up. So then, isn't the only benefit of larger rotor on later cars is higher resistance to fade, and not a shorter stopping distance? Thanks

At lower speeds (say, under 60mph) the braking force available generally exceeds the grip available on street tires. The result is ABS engages, as the limit is tires, not brakes.

At higher speeds (say, over 100mph, maybe 120-140?) it's the opposite. Even if you punched the brake pedal, most likely there is more grip available than there is braking power. This is why you rarely have ABS engage at high speeds - assuming street tires, street brake pad compound, stock-ish brake sizes, and clean dry pavement.

The larger rotors (and possible larger pad swept area), if combined with more aggressive pad compounds working at their optimum temperature, and with stickier tires, will reduce stopping distances. This all depends on the exact setups you are comparing though. Do you have a particular setup in mind?

BTW, all of the above are broad generalizations, and yes there can be exceptions. It also assumes appropriate-sized MC and good brake fluid that doesn't boil, proper pad bed-in, yadda yadda. I agree with Rouven that the difference between 300mm fronts and 320mm on the 500E is noticeable at speeds of 100mph+. And another jump is noticeable when you move up to the 334mm fronts. But only at high speeds. At USA-legal speeds, the difference is relatively minor.

 

[Kyiv]

Alright, @gsxr and @Rouven036, thanks. I understand now where my blind spot was: brake torque needed to arrest a wheel at 100+ mph speed that is provided via better leverage of a larger rotor. I was confused by a vague memory from high school physics class about friction coefficient not being depended on the area, but rather pressure... Something to that extent.... Based on that I thought, that given that larger, post-1993 500E front brake rotors are still clamped by the same-sized 4 pistons as the smaller, pre-1993 rotors - there isn't any increase in friction coefficient, hence no shorter stopping distances. Only better fade management after repeated stops

But now, the improved leverage of a larger rotor at very high, 100+ mph makes perfect sense, especially considering modern sticky tires. There's probably some measurable difference even at 70-0 mph with larger rotors, if a 500E is equipped with summer tires vs conservative all-season ones

 

[744Brillantsilber]

@gsxr and @Rouven036, thank you for very good the explanation!
@kiev thanks for the forbearance!

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Little update:
I can keep my stock brakes!

 

[gerryvz]

Heil TÜV !!

 

[744Brillantsilber]

An other small update:
Looks like I found a company selling plug- and-play catalytic converters for .034 and .036 which are made in Germany and street legal here too.
I wrote them an email today and now wait for the response.
If they are indeed available, I can keep you updated about who makes them if somebody is interested in them!

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Ordered a catalytic converter, the left exhaust tube (going under the gearbox) and two headlight wiper (edit: wiper blades) today from "Carus" today.
All of them are NLA at MB

 

[Kyiv]

Ordered a catalytic converter, the left exhaust tube (going under the gearbox) and two headlight wipers today from "Carus" today

Link please!

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Link please!

Auspuffrohr - Auspuffanlage - I - Auspuffanlage - Fahrgestell / Aufba

The website is German only, but they probably answer an English email. If not, I can offer to translate.
Prices are 1650 Euro incl. VAT for the c, 299 Euro for the tube and 55 Euro for each blade.

 

[Kyiv]

Thanks. Google Translate, translates pages automatically. Is this the photo of an actual product? Cats, plus exhaust pipes leading up to exhaust manifold? Wipers at $55 is murderous...

 

[744Brillantsilber]

@kiev:
You are welcome!
Yes, according to them this is the actual product.
Yes, the wiper blades are not cheap...

 

[sheward]

The exhaust in the picture looks well made.

drew

 

[TimL]

Auspuffrohr - Auspuffanlage - I - Auspuffanlage - Fahrgestell / Aufba

The website is German only, but they probably answer an English email. If not, I can offer to translate.
Prices are 1650 Euro incl. VAT for the c, 299 Euro for the tube and 55 Euro for each blade.

Cool find! Thanks for posting the exhaust link. Please post pictures of the actual part when you get it, as this might be a great source for a much in demand NLA part if the quality is good.

I bought headlight wiper blades and rear axle sportline bushings a while ago from CARUS. They seem like a really good outfit that has some rare parts once in a while.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

@sheward I hope so, but am confident about it!
I heard many good things from both the W126 scene and a friend ordering NLA-parts for his W124 230E.

@TimL of course! I will not install it until the project is over, but will send pictures as soon as it arrives.

 

[744Brillantsilber]

Alright,
had a bit time to work on the car today: Removed the headlights, front fenders and rear bumper plus did a bit of documentation about the cars current condition.
The car will get the rust removed during the project and get a new coat of paint at a very good paintshop that does lots of work for the Stuttgart Classic Center and for AMG.