New owner introduction and restoration project 500E

[036/199]

Hi guys,
my name is Raikku and I recently bought a 1992 500E project.
My daily job is running a garage for BMW M-cars and P-cars(mostly GT3 race cars) here in Finland.

Not a stranger to MB,have a W124 as daily and had so a 300SEL 6.3 and 450SEL 6.9 over the years.



The car is a Japan version,imported by the PO a few years ago with 140k km and rust free.
He disassembled the car to fully restore it,but other things kept him busy.
So it went for sale and I bought it.

Many things are already done,like the gearbox,prop-shaft,cylinder heads rebuilt.

With the car came loads of new parts(for suspension,steering,brakes,ignition,cooling,engine rebuild,...) and some nice bits like SL73 calipers and AMG back box(fitted back in Japan along with facelift bonnet and the leather/wood steering wheel).

All bolts and steel lines,brackets,...were already yellow chromed by the PO.

Have to order some suspension parts,engine parts and lights still.

Rebuild the diff as well while at it.

And need a set of wheels,most likely 18" Monoblocks.

The goal is to have a mechanical new car while preserving as much of the original paint as possible(needs only a few panels painted to be perfect) as well as the interior(which is minus cracks in the wood in great condition).

Enough of the talk,here is some pics:

 

[gerryvz]

Wow, looks like quite an involved project, Raikku. There is certainly plenty of information and folks here who can be of assistance to you, so don't be afraid to ask questions if you need to.

I think we have 2-3 other members in Finland, as well, so hopefully you all can connect.

Look forward to seeing your progress in the coming weeks and months on your new project.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Glen]

Raikku,
Welcome! I'm a member at M5board and have seen your capabilities, if anyone can bring that 500E back to life, it's you.

It's great to see you here, I know you will be a great contributor and source for the rest of us!

 

[500AMM]

Wow - more neighbours chiming in here - that's great!
Welcome to the "036 center of excellence"!


Cheers
-arnt-

 

[Christian_K]

Looks just like my project... i have now even the second overhauled engine in my car....
Will post a very big topic in the future when i get to collect all the photos and Vids from friends etc...

 

[195910]

Welcome to the forum ! Hope you enjoy our international .036 forum.

I highly appreciate the effort and level of work carried out by members in restoring their E500E, but I question the financial feasibility of such projects knowing that very good examples that don't require any restoration work can be found in Europe and for prices less than the cost of restoration. At the same time an original unrestored car in good condition is worth more than a restored car.

I am now debating the idea of restoration even for classic cars; this is now a concept in the US and Europe and I support the Idea 100%.
For Example: 30 year old Original factory paint with some scratches or fading is worth more than new perfect paint, why? because it has historical value and has old paint characteristics.

Just wanted to share this Idea, all respect for everyone's work and project.

 

[Allgonquin]

Terve Raikku,

Just came back from Finland - was there last week as I work for a Finnish company.

It's weird how the car looks with the steel wheels - I don't think I've ever seen a 124 with steelies, much less an 036. Completely changes the character of the car. Could really make the ultimate sleeper by debadging or false badging and using some wheels like that. Good luck on your project and I think most of us would really enjoy seeing the work documented on the board - I hope you can find time to do it.

Rgds,
Chris

 

[036/199]

Thanks for the nice welcome guys!

Glen,what is your nick on M5board?

Chris,next time you hit Finland let me know that we can meet up.
Anyone visiting this country is always welcome at my garage,it is close to the Helsinki airport.Just give me a shout.

Arnt,would be nice to meet up with you some day(I have some customers in Norway I have to visit next spring).
Would be more than interested to see your Kompressor 500E!

Christian,I did read many of your posts regarding engine modifications!We should talk some time about some ideas....



Been through many full restorations both personal and customer cars.
I prefer to keep as much of the original character of the car as I am not a fan of soul less trailer queens.
Mechanical they need to be perfect and also the bodywork nice,but I hate new leather in an old car!

The economical side is not that much of an issue as the car was quite cheap(less than the cheapest driveable one on mobile.de).


I am not sure with the 500E which way to go and I am open to suggestions...

Here are some questions:

-Should I go all original or keep the already installed facelift bonnet plus buy facelift headlights?

-The engine is apart,so porting the heads,cams,modifying the intake manifold is easy at this stage.
I have also the possibility to do a set of custom headers.
Should I do that or keep it original?

-Would any of these modifications have a massive impact on the value of the car?Or are they acceptable?


I can not wait to get started with this project,have to get out some customer stuff over the next few weeks first.
But will start soon with the engine.

 

[gsxr]

Here are some questions:

-Should I go all original or keep the already installed facelift bonnet plus buy facelift headlights?

-The engine is apart,so porting the heads,cams,modifying the intake manifold is easy at this stage.
I have also the possibility to do a set of custom headers.
Should I do that or keep it original?

-Would any of these modifications have a massive impact on the value of the car?Or are they acceptable?

• Unless you really like the facelift look, or need to replace the hood due to damage, I'd leave it alone. You also need to update the trunk (boot) lid to complete the look, plus the headlights as you mentioned. Quite a bit of effort & expense involved. I'd put the money elsewhere.
  
• Port matching the intake & heads would be a good idea, mild porting on the heads wouldn't hurt either.
  
• Custom headers will look cool but mostly just drain your bank account. I wouldn't waste the time or money, but that's just me. I have yet to hear of any dyno results showing headers provided significant power gains compared to the stock manifolds, especially on a 5.0 motor.
  
• Facelifting could affect the value long-term, as it may cause future buyers to question if the car was in an accident. Many facelifts happen because of accident damage. The other stuff probably would have minimal effect on value, IMO. If you did install headers, they could be removed in the future. I guess you could say the same for the facelift though, but there would be paint issues with body part swapping, etc....

 

[Glen]

re: facelift or original. I prefer the facelift look but only if it includes the proper trunk (boot). How it affects value really depends on the buyer and that is determined by the mileage and condition of the car. If it's a low mile, pristine example then original is best as collectors value originality. If not, then whatever you like is the way to go. Just ensure that the changes are done correctly with quality materials and workmanship.

You can find me as 'GST' on M5board. I've had my '03 LMB M5 since 2005.

 

[036/199]

It already has a facelift bonnet on it and facelift headlights with RHD lenses,so easiest way would be to just buy LHD lenses.

The boot lid I should replace anyway,as I can not fit a regular license plate there without issues.


I am sure there is decent power gains in headers,the factory manifolds look very restrictive ...
Take the E39 M5,same displacement as the M119,I gain 25-30HP from ditching the stock manifolds(and these are better designed than the M119).

I can build headers myself,so it is not that bad.Happen to have as set of BMW S65 headers that I can butcher up.
Did already a quick measurement and mock up,looks quite promising...

The whole engine layout seems to be quite conservative regarding its power output.
It is more engineered on being reliable for 500k+ miles than for performance.

Ported heads and cams will gain quite much,but the next restriction is the airbox and the throttle body diameter.

Glen,I recognize your nick from the M5board.

I noticed there is a few guys who have W124.036 and E39 M5.
The two best performance saloons ever built,IMO...

 

[gerryvz]

I do not think you will gain 25-30 HP from using headers on the M119. With the US-spec M117, a dyno-confirmed 25-30 HP is possible with the bolt-on factory "tri-y" manifolds that eliminate a restrictive crossover pipe, but with the M119 the entire exhaust was well engineered right out of the box. It is not a good idea to "assume" that similar modifications from one car (BMW M5), or one engine, are automatically applicable to the M119.

Furthermore, the space under the hood is EXTREMELY restricted and thus it would be very difficult (possible, but difficult) to create good quality, robust and well-flowing headers for the M119 in the W124 chassis. A major factor is creating headers that clear the steering box and linkage.

There are already larger air boxes available from RENNtech, as well as EEPROM chips, and numerous people have installed them (heck, I have four different EEPROM chips from various vendors myself - they are all basically junk). There is very little to NO horespower gain from these items. A couple of the aftermarket chips actually cause the cars to LOSE power. Some of the available chips have been shown to remove the V-Max restriction, and perhaps have moved the incremental power gain up or down the power curve, but overall there is NO large, free power gain from the M119 outside of the following options:

- increasing displacement to 5.6 or 6.0 liters
- supercharging or turbocharging
- nitrous oxide
- if a 1993 or 1994 US car, using the 1992 US/Euro LH computer (+7-10 HP)

Any and all other gains (including porting and polishing) will provide small, incremental power gains. I'm talking 5 HP at a time. So you would end up paying extremely large amounts of money for a collectively small set of power gains. And many of these "remedies" such as the larger air box, don't work at all.

Performance modifications have been EXHAUSTIVELY discussed on this site, both in a theoretical and real sense. The only realistic option IMHO for major power gain is to increase displacement, or install a supercharger. That will run you $10-30,000 USD depending on what option you prefer. Even the 6.0-liter M119 only had 381 HP, so with the extra displacement and revised computers, you are only talking +50 HP above the 5-liter version. Perhaps conservative and maybe with a little more effort 400 HP is possible with a 6.0, but how much money did that extra 75 HP cost you ?!?

At least with supercharging, you can get +100-150 HP with not so much problem.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

After investing dozens of hours of labor to fabricate headers, I expect you'll find maybe 10hp gain. MAYBE. Other people have reported power losses after custom header installs. I seriously would not waste the time or money.

I didn't see that the car already had the facelift hood... yeah, I'd get the matching boot lid, and correct E500-specific lenses. No point it switching back unless you really prefer the early appearance.

 

[036/199]

After investing dozens of hours of labor to fabricate headers, I expect you'll find maybe 10hp gain. MAYBE. Other people have reported power losses after custom header installs. I seriously would not waste the time or money.

The key with headers for this engine is long tubes and a correct collector.

I might want to add that I am building(I do NOT mean rebuilding) many road and race engines n/a as well as force induction professionally.
Another part of my work includes being part of the R&D department(I do mostly hardware but also engine calibration) for a well known BMW tuning company.


Just out of curiosity,if somebody would come up with a header that gains in real life 20hp+ and is manufactured by a well know exhaust company,would people pay 2k$+ for it?


At the end of the day,an engine is an engine.Nothing else.

Similar engine layouts have the tendency to respond similar to modifications,at least in my experience...


EEPROM is already something I am researching and do myself

 

[gsxr]

The key with headers for this engine is long tubes and a correct collector.

Have you seen any dyno graphs, before & after, for a 5.0L M119.97x engine showing the actual power gain?

 

[036/199]

Have you seen any dyno graphs, before & after, for a 5.0L M119.97x engine showing the actual power gain?

Not YET.........

 

[gerryvz]

We will very anxiously await your results from the performance items you create.

I would not pay $2,000+ for a set of headers for the 500E that provided 20 HP, no. And I believe very few, if any members here would either.

 

[gsxr]

Just out of curiosity,if somebody would come up with a header that gains in real life 20hp+ and is manufactured by a well know exhaust company,would people pay 2k$+ for it?

I think yes, there would be at least some interest, if there was dyno-proven 20hp+ gain with no negative side effects (i.e., no loss of low-end torque, no objectionable noise, no reduced life span, ability to install without removing engine, no cutting/welding required to install, etc). I doubt you'd get more than 5-10 people worldwide though. (??)

I've seen dyno graphs on 6.0L M119's where it appeared that full headers and high-flow cats were worth about 10hp.

EEPROM is already something I am researching and do myself

You can remove the top-speed limit with the EEPROM fairly easily. And increase the rev limit to 6600. Otherwise, there hasn't been any power found in the chips, since it only controls fuel delivery, and the ignition curves are fixed / non-adjustable. I would be curious what you find out though.

 

[elbeik]

Good luck in your project. Yet another source of inspiration for me to start rejuvenating mine

 

[KarlC]

- if a 1993 or 1994 US car, using the 1992 US/Euro LH computer (+7-10 HP)


Cheers,
Gerry

Anyone know how much of a TQ increase the 1992 US/Euro LH gives ?

 

[036/199]

I think yes, there would be at least some interest, if there was dyno-proven 20hp+ gain with no negative side effects (i.e., no loss of low-end torque, no objectionable noise, no reduced life span, ability to install without removing engine, no cutting/welding required to install, etc). I doubt you'd get more than 5-10 people worldwide though. (??)

I've seen dyno graphs on 6.0L M119's where it appeared that full headers and high-flow cats were worth about 10hp.




You can remove the top-speed limit with the EEPROM fairly easily. And increase the rev limit to 6600. Otherwise, there hasn't been any power found in the chips, since it only controls fuel delivery, and the ignition curves are fixed / non-adjustable. I would be curious what you find out though.

This is why long tubes,good torque gains in the mid-range with no low end loss and good top end power...

I am determined to research on that header matter(will take some time,as this is only fun for me),have close by an engine dyno to see what concept provides the best compromise...

Fueling is something that need re-calibrating for sure even only with cams and heads...

My heads go tomorrow to the machining shop along with the intake manifold.

The cams go to Dbilas for re-grind.

So the choice regarding the engine itself is made

I am busy at the moment with a quite high power engine build(BMW 1000BHP+ turbo straight six).
This one is ready tomorrow,so I can start with the M119 next week.

Ordered also the last few missing parts like rod and main bearings with bolts,head bolts and water pump today.

Another a bit time consuming part will be the upper engine wiring loom.Although it is a pretty easy and only 22-pin layout.
Have a lot of MIL-spec wires and all the pins I need for the connector are available,so I build my own wiring loom.

The lower wiring loom is already new,but I will also do my own...

The car is a keeper,so why not do it proper then.....


What is the highest power/torque output verified for a 5.0?

 

[gsxr]

Anyone know how much of a TQ increase the 1992 US/Euro LH gives ?

My dyno testing shows approx +10rwhp (est +12hp at crank), +12rwtq (est +15tq at crank). YMMV, etc.

 

[gsxr]

The cams go to Dbilas for re-grind.

I'm curious what power is available from Dbilas re-grinds with stock heads & manifold... and also ported heads / manifold. Your build should help prove the latter combo, but sadly you won't have any "before" dyno data from this engine, on the same dyno used for the "after". What valve lift will be used on the re-grinds? Will your 1992 double-valve-spring setup accomodate the additional valve lift without changing the springs?

What is the highest power/torque output verified for a 5.0?

For a stock 5.0L (1993-1994) with 1992 LH module (with WOT enrichment), I've seen 282rwhp/306rwtq, SAE corrected on a DynoJet (stock wheels+tires, stock differential). I haven't seen any other solid data (i.e., dyno graphs) for modified 5.0L motors. People like to do mods but never want to go to the dyno, or if they do go to the dyno, they don't want to post the results...

 

[gerryvz]

I would not pay $2,000+ for a set of headers for the 500E that provided 20 HP, no. And I believe very few, if any members here would either.

I think yes, there would be at least some interest, I doubt you'd get more than 5-10 people worldwide though. (??)

Interest is one thing.

Dollars transferred from bank accounts is quite another.

Remember how much interest there was on 500Ecstasy.com when BergWerks offered their nitrous-oxide kits? Half the board was pledging to buy it.
In the end, perhaps 5 board members actually sprang the $2K for the kit.

And a few years ago, when Steve offered the redux on the kit availability? I think there were all but 2-3 kits sold. Eh?

Now granted, nitrous-oxide is a bit more "esoteric" or "exotic" and limited-use than forced induction or higher displacement, but 100+HP putting your butt further back in your seat, is 100+HP putting your butt further back in your seat. And very very few people paid for this.

Headers too are fairly exotic, and even your own list of "must have" characteristics is quite long.

So I stand by my statement. I think maximum that he could sell perhaps 3-5 header kits MAX to members of this site. But I bet there will be plenty of "interest" ....

I haven't seen any other solid data (i.e., dyno graphs) for modified 5.0L motors. People like to do mods but never want to go to the dyno, or if they do go to the dyno, they don't want to post the results...

I published dyno plots from two different dynos many years ago both without and with nitrous.

I'll try to dig up the table of the results obtained.

 

[gsxr]

Interest is one thing.

Dollars transferred from bank accounts is quite another.

I agree 100%. My estimates may have been optimistic. Interest level (and dollars transferred) will be HIGHLY dependent on real-world dyno results, and total cost including shipping.

Note that the vast majority of owners will have stock engines, stock heads, stock intake manifolds, and stock camshafts. The headers would need to be bolted up to a stock 500E and tested on the SAME DYNO with stock exhaust manifolds, and then with the headers. An "after" dyno graph on a modified motor (porting, camshafts, headers) showing 20-40hp gain is great, but you can't tell what the gain was from headers alone. Yes the whole package made XXhp, but porting is outside most people's abilities (or wallets), camshafts are another $1500+ USD, etc... you get the idea.

I must say that there were some decent dyno graphs posted on the BW NOS kits and the power gain was proven at both dyno and dragstrip, by at least three different people IIRC. I hope to be adding to that data next year.

 

[biohound1975]

The M119 was raced in Le Mans within the CLK-LM (6.0 liter, normally aspirated), Sauber C9/MB C11 (5 liter twin turbo), both with 600+ hp. So I would think the potential is there, but the cost would probably be exorbitant (a guess)....with the assumption that any engine raced a Le Mans was tuned for a relative short life span and with MB's full racing budget behind it.

Forced induction is probably the way to go.....if so, you would probably see larger improvements from headers, exhaust ect. due to back pressure created by the forced induction system. Boost allowed my 2.5 liter engine in my Subaru WRX STI to crank out 460 whp, so I'm sure you could get some good numbers out of a 5 liter M119. But....building the Subaru's drive train cost over $20K with engine build,turbo, exhaust intercooler, ect.ect.ect.....and labor! I assume a project on an E500 would be far more costly. I just don't see any space for a turbo system, maybe if you did some cutting and used small diameter turbos. This leaves you with the supercharger option. However...I'm a noob to the 500E and owning a V8.

I just don't know if it is worth it, especially doing what the 500E does best and that is cruising down the highway. I must be getting old.

 

[biohound1975]

Mercedes-Benz M119 4,973 cc (303.5 cu in) HL 90º 5.0L Turbo V8 Twin KKK Turbos Mid, longitudinally mounted

[youtube]5Yh9qLMmt0w[/youtube]

 

[036/199]

Regarding the headers,I will do them for me anyway and keep you guys updated.

It was just a question if there might be interest granted they work.

My plan is to pick up another engine(which I can slap stock and with headers on the engine dyno) to play around with way more radical than the original engine in the car.
ITBs,stand alone,7500rpm,heads,cams,valve springs,retainers,...



Let me re-phrase my earlier question:

What is the highest output 5.0l M119 with real hardware modifications on it?

To me it seems these lumps are good for around 15-20% power/torque gain throughout the rpm range without too much sacrifices.

The biggest issue is fuel/ignition control.


Personally,I am not a fan of NOS(and this is an understatement!).

It is nothing else than a band-aid for boosting power for a short period.....


Dave,valve springs depend on what kind of spring force the stock ones have.
I will find that out next week on the scale.

10.3mm lift and 260deg duration is what I will try.
Worked with Dbilas in the past and no issues with their products.

Just a FYI,Schrick cams are also stock cams(new ones obviously) re-ground to different profiles.

Was going through some of the boxes with parts,all nice shiny stuff:




PO did get an oil filter housing with connections for the external oil cooler(as Japan versions do not have external oil cooler but the fancy fuel cooling with a/c fluid) and all the lines and brackets.
Ordered the oil cooler new last night.

Also found this:

 

[036/199]

Some more pics of engine/engine related parts that came with the car:



Even the clips for the injectors are new yellow plated







The PO was as crazy as me when it comes down to ordering parts.
A man to my liking and I am more than happy he sold the car to me(I think he is also happy,as he wanted a good new home for this project)...

Of course I will continue in this spirit with the rest of the project!

It is like Christmas going through all these boxes!

Regarding the race engines and 24h Le Mans,they run around 5k km during this time.
The stress/wear put on the engine is around 10-15 times higher than road driving(rule of thumb applied here from my experience).

On a side note,24h Le Mans is an amazing race.
Did it twice so far and my favorite of all 24h races I had to work at...

 

[Christian_K]

Hi Raikku,
Why you use 260° cam Profile?
DBilas can regrind you the cams into Hagmann Profile (seach Forums for numbers), which gives 30HP according to them. But you will need latches for them IIRC that are placed under the hydraulic lifters. Well but i guess you will find out.
Your comment regarding Schrick cams is wrong though (if i understood your text correctly). They dont't have a reduced base circle, so they dont have the typical regrind side-effects.

 

[036/199]

Hi Raikku,
Why you use 260° cam Profile?
DBilas can regrind you the cams into Hagmann Profile (seach Forums for numbers), which gives 30HP according to them. But you will need latches for them IIRC that are placed under the hydraulic lifters. Well but i guess you will find out.
Your comment regarding Schrick cams is wrong though (if i understood your text correctly). They dont't have a reduced base circle, so they dont have the typical regrind side-effects.

Good idea regarding the Hagmann profile.
I will look into that.

My comment was that buying cams from Schrick for the M119 would be also re-ground ones as they do not list them in their catalog.

Sorry if this was a bit unclear.

According to Dbilas the base circle stays the same with their 260deg/10.3mm lift cam!?
Just had a phone conversation with them..

 

[gsxr]

According to Dbilas the base circle stays the same with their 260deg/10.3mm lift cam!?
Just had a phone conversation with them..

Ah, that is good information! What is the claimed power gain from this 260deg/10.3mm lift cam? Any EPROM changes required?

 

[KarlC]

Raikku as we can all tell already you will be posting very interesting topics.

Now all we have to do is lead you down the path of a rear mount twin turbo set up, how about it ?

 

[gasers]

Hello to you all..

According to Dbilas the base circle stays the same with their 260deg/10.3mm lift cam!?

If they say this. its not possible! how can you get more lift and degr without taking any of the base?

Take care..

 

[gsxr]

According to Dbilas the base circle stays the same with their 260deg/10.3mm lift cam!?

If they say this. its not possible! how can you get more lift and degr without taking any of the base?

D'oh - good point. Maybe they meant that no additional modifications are required, i.e. no spacers ("latch") under the lifters, etc.

 

[Christian_K]

D'oh - good point. Maybe they meant that no additional modifications are required, i.e. no spacers ("latch") under the lifters, etc.

Which is not possible either because at such lifts and the reduced base circle, valve clearance/play is to high for the stock lifters to compensate... However we will see how it turns out.
Hagmann once said that you have to replace the valve-spring retainer for their cams, dunno what that changes in play/clearance...

 

[036/199]

D'oh - good point. Maybe they meant that no additional modifications are required, i.e. no spacers ("latch") under the lifters, etc.

It was confirmed with their production department that the base circle does not change.
They say it only changes if the cam is worn,so I think I know how they are re-grinding them.

I am not believing the info anyway,but I will give it a try and report back with before and after measurements.

Worst case is I have to compensate the play with end caps for example.


Also did look a bit in the M119 n/a race engine matter as used in the GTR.
I have a few sources for information regarding those and one guy I know has one of the V8 powered race cars.
He takes some detailed pics of engine parts I asked him for(mostly intake and exhaust related).
But so far from what I gathered it seems I am on the right track regarding my ideas on how to extract more power from this engine....

 

[gsxr]

If they don't reduce the base circle, they must add material to the top of the lobe via welding, then grind that down. Very curious to hear what you find out!

 

[036/199]

Well,somebody has to try it,right?


Changing the retainers has no impact on valve clearance.
Can be only be force related(due to lift and/or rpm)....

I do not think Hagmann's power claims for the cams are realistic.
There is way too many flow restrictions on the intake and exhaust side to make power gains like that with cams only...

 

[gsxr]

I assume you've seen this thread already? Some info from Dbilas and Hagmann is archived here - it's gone from the Hagmann website now:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1000-M119-aftermarket-camshafts

EDIT: Link fixed!

 

[KarlC]

I assume you've seen this thread already? Some info from Dbilas and Hagmann is archived here - it's gone from the Hagmann website now:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/search.php?searchid=326786

Looks like a bad link Dave, or it that point ?

 

[Christian_K]

Correct link:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?1000-M119-aftermarket-camshafts&highlight=Hagmann

 

[gsxr]

D'oh! Sorry about that - yes, that is the link. I fixed my previous post as well.

 

[Allgonquin]

Fascinating discussion. Can't add anything other than clearly this ain't Raikku's first engine rodeo, obviously. And thanks to biohound for posting that video. That car was always a beautiful racecar and the sound is to die for!

Rgds,
Chris

 

[500AMM]

.
It was some interesting aspects about down tube headers here, and I only know about two 036s with that, and both are tuned. I'm sure it gives some gain, but not headers alone in a stock exhaust sytem, the entire system must be calculated and built to spec. Headers is normally used on racing engines operating from mid range up to the top end, so the headers is a must. Another thing is to gain a better heat release. The calcs starts in the air filter box and the entire flow route has to be taken into consideration all the way through the engine and out the muffler. I spoke to one guy making a set here in Norway and he complained a lot about the access problems, and his final comments was - Never again!! The worst obstacles was the oil filter housing and the steering box, and those two items does in fact destroy the possibility for making proper headers. The oil filter housing could be rebuild to a remote filter unit, but the steering box is a bigger challenge. However, the solution could be to convert to rack & pinion, but who would take on that development?

I guess headers could be wice to have on my supercharged 6.0, but I don't race it so other options could be done like; portmatching the exh.manifolds with the cyl.head, extrude honing and thermal coating, maybe polishing outside for better convection but that do also make it harder for the adjacent parts.

I look forward to see your progress on this.

-arnt-

 

[036/199]

I found a very cheap .034.

If I am not totally wrong,I could use the short block,modify it to my liking and put it in the .036,right?

What are the differences regarding the transmission?

The reason I was wondering is that the 500E seems to have its original engine and gearbox.
So might be smart to keep all that original and build another modified drive train for it ...

What do you guys think?

 

[gsxr]

4.2L won't allow you to bore the block large enough, I don't think? I.e., I don't think you could turn a 4.2L engine into a 5.0L engine. (??) I'm not sure about this though. Even if you could, the crank is wrong, pistons, etc...

Transmission is the same. Euro-spec transmission probably has second-gear start for both 034 and 036. (USA and Japan 034's had 2.24 diff gears and first-gear-start valve bodies.)

 

[Christian_K]

If you take the early "full block", you can for sure make whatever out of it, whatever you like.

Dream:
Take a 560 M117 crank, 101mm pistons, 5L conrods -> 6.x L.... If we would come more into the 460-500HP range which such a N/A engine, i would do it... But we don't... and i'm not going to invest the 10.000€++ for "only" 400HP, or ~80HP more than stock...
BTW i have a as good as new 5L Crank and rods for sale... Or maybe i take them on my own and make a stock crank/rod and 101mm bore? What cc would that be? ^^ At least that would make the car a "short-stroker" like we call it in germany, with most power/torque at higher RPM. At least that would be more realistically possible financial wise...
Problem is still the ECU rework.. And i still wonder if there are bigger injectors/higher fuel pressure for those 6.xL engines as even the 500E is close to max duty cycle....

Sorry for thread hijacking

 

[biohound1975]

"Under the hood of the CLK is another carbon-covered race engine – this one a race-tuned Mercedes M119 V8 outputting 500ps, as per JGTC GT500 class regulations."

More madness.

Drool.



sadly....all of these are probably SLs.

 

[036/199]

Christian,

very interesting idea.

Can anyone confirm the 4.2l block can not be bored to 100mm?


I was checking the piston specs in the AMG E60 introduction manual.

Have about 10 used useable pistons(left overs from Porsche race engine builts) that come minus the wrist pin diameter very close to the AMG specs.