OWNER a777fan (E420)

[a777fan]

What grade motor oil do you run? And was the Oil pressure sender ever replaced? The Oil pressure looks quite low to me just also verify that it gets at least 3 bar by 1500rpm that is a minimum spec even if it reads quite low at idle. It looks about 0.35 - 0.4 Bar at idle I would think that is maybe a tad low

Joe,

Its always run this low. The sender appears to be original, and I have a new one waiting for install once I get my freshly rebuilt lower harness from jono.

It pegs at 3bar prior to 1500. Owners manual also states 0.3 bar at hot idle is OK. Running 5w-40. :shrug:


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[JC220]

Joe,

Its always run this low. The sender appears to be original, and I have a new one waiting for install once I get my freshly rebuilt lower harness from jono.

It pegs at 3bar prior to 1500. Owners manual also states 0.3 bar at hot idle is OK. Running 5w-40. :shrug:


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That Sounds OK! In my experience a new fresh OEM sender can read a little higher. I think the older senders tend to read up to 0.5 bar lower with age

 

[TerryA]

Sooo,

All you have done is change rotors and read and clear the codes and everything is OK now? That’s weird.
Pin 7 - Code 11 ‘Idle Speed Control’ got my attention since it shuts off fuel and recognizes throttle closed position.

If Code 11 is not in spec wouldn’t that be the culprit?

Was it cleared before you started? OR did it re-set by cycling the key off/on?

OK Dave, 77 says he only changed rotors since Sunday. What do you think has changed to allow the engine to run?
Just trying to understand.

Also 77, where did you get the reader? I should get one.

 

[a777fan]

Sooo,

All you have done is change rotors and read and clear the codes and everything is OK now? That’s weird.
Pin 7 - Code 11 ‘Idle Speed Control’ got my attention since it shuts off fuel and recognizes throttle closed position.

If Code 11 is not in spec wouldn’t that be the culprit?

Was it cleared before you started? OR did it re-set by cycling the key off/on?

OK Dave, 77 says he only changed rotors since Sunday. What do you think has changed to allow the engine to run?
Just trying to understand.

Also 77, where did you get the reader? I should get one.

Terry, I haven't changed the rotors since Sunday. They are the same new ones I bought when I started this 'refresh'. Hence my rhetorical question about needing to 'break them in'.

I'll be curious to read codes again in a weeks time or so, to see if any of them re-appear. Or... if the no-start condition shows up again, if that results in any codes set.

I got both the breakout box and the blink reader from ebay. I'll post up links later, but Dave usually has a really good bead on the cheapest options available at any given moment.

 

[a777fan]

Found this nice little summary of vacuum testing with a gauge. It provides a nice little summary, and indicates my value of 18 is reasonable. I'll go back and execute the idle snap accel test this weekend and record the results.

http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

 

[a777fan]

Thought I would tempt fate and re-install the remainder of the engine trim plastics this morning, including the belly pan.

Cosmetically, I’m really happy with the result.

Took it out for a nice long drive today, and it didn’t have any problems. Started three times at various temps, and no hiccups! I think I still have some bowden cable adjustment work to do, as its a bit too quick to upshift.

Additionally I feel like it runs a bit rich at times, as i am able to smell gas fumes from the tailpipe occasionally. Should all of the old adaptations have been erased when I had the battery disconnected during the repairs? Or is there something I have to do to reset the LH module?




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[gsxr]

You shouldn't be smelling gas fro the tailpipe - that is odd. But yes, on a 1994-95 model with stock LH module, it should reset adaptation when you disconnect the battery cable. You can also manually reset it with the blink code reader by "clearing" the 1-blink (no faults) as mentioned in the fine print of the DTC PDF file on my website (also in the De-Coding subforum sticky).

 

[maw1124]

Mine ran rich, such that I could smell gas, when I was playing around with different EZL trim plugs. GVZ has a good write up on the appropriate ones for each market. You might test that to make sure you have the right one. But barring that, yes running that rich is a mystery. But returning codes will be interesting.

maw

 

[a777fan]

A new lower harness is in the works, so I replaced my oil pressure sender.

It was the original!

While I was under the car, i noticed that there is oil leaking down the passenger side of the engine from the air pump area. The intake hoses on the pump had a fair amount of oil, which had worked its way down onto the engine mount cooling pipes. The new valve cover gasket seems dry around the edges... is there anything over there that would leak? The air pump isn’t lubricated in any way, is it?


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[gsxr]

A new lower harness is in the works, so I replaced my oil pressure sender. It was the original!

Very common. I've replaced this sender on, I believe, every single car I currently own. They're usually toast by now.

While I was under the car, i noticed that there is oil leaking down the passenger side of the engine from the air pump area. The intake hoses on the pump had a fair amount of oil, which had worked its way down onto the engine mount cooling pipes. The new valve cover gasket seems dry around the edges... is there anything over there that would leak? The air pump isn’t lubricated in any way, is it?

This is a common leak area... however, tracing down the source can be difficult. If you had a leak from the cam solenoids previously, that may have been the source. The only way to find out is to clean off ALL the old oil / grime and see if new oil appears, and if so, trace it back to the source. The 3 bolts for the air pump bracket must have the threads coated with anaerobic sealant, if not, it will leak down the passenger side of the timing cover / block. Pretty sure I mentioned this a few hundred posts back, but I forget if you had removed the bracket or not. The air pump is dry and not oiled in any way, the label on the side even says "no oiling".

 

[a777fan]

Very common. I've replaced this sender on, I believe, every single car I currently own. They're usually toast by now.



This is a common leak area... however, tracing down the source can be difficult. If you had a leak from the cam solenoids previously, that may have been the source. The only way to find out is to clean off ALL the old oil / grime and see if new oil appears, and if so, trace it back to the source. The 3 bolts for the air pump bracket must have the threads coated with anaerobic sealant, if not, it will leak down the passenger side of the timing cover / block. Pretty sure I mentioned this a few hundred posts back, but I forget if you had removed the bracket or not. The air pump is dry and not oiled in any way, the label on the side even says "no oiling".

Thanks sir! I did not disturb the air pump in my cleaning frenzy, but there is always a chance that they are now leaking. The good news is that the area WAS spic-n-span, so should be pretty easy to spot! I'll have to pull the covers this weekend to see if anything stands out.

 

[a777fan]

Got the new lower harness in and it still starts! That oil pressure gauge is pretty snappy now. I’ll be curious to see how it reads when warm.

I did some poking around on the oil leak and confirmed the VC gaskets is dry. Did find this little hex head bugger tucked in up under the top of the head. What the heck is it doing there? And has anyone else experienced a leak from it?

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[gsxr]

Jon, the hex head you are seeing is not the leak source. It's coming from further up (and probably forward), I promise. BT, DT... as Klink would say, I've seen it a million times.

Even if you didn't touch the air pump bracket, you may want to pull each of the 3 bolts one at a time. If they are oily, that is at least part of your leak source. On one of my RENNtech engines I took this bracket off while replacing the front crank seal and found all the bolts oiled, because a previous mechanic didn't apply the proper sealant to the threads.

 

[a777fan]

Dave. Thanks for that picture and info. The pic helps explain where all these items attach. Is the side mount there the oil filter location?


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[a777fan]

This one is for you Joe!

New lower harness and oil pressure sender. Half hour driving around town in traffic, up and down hills. 5W-40.


Much happier with the readings at idle now.



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[JC220]

This one is for you Joe!

New lower harness and oil pressure sender. Half hour driving around town in traffic, up and down hills. 5W-40.

Much happier with the readings at idle now.

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Looking good now Jon! That's decent Oil Pressure

 

[a777fan]

Well this is a major bummer.

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[gsxr]

D'OH!

I can't remember... had you replaced those, or are they original? On the bright side, at least you found the source of the oil leak!!

 

[a777fan]

they are original... didn't touch them. I they must have gotten jealous

should i take the whole upper timing chain cover off to replace? I thought I remembered people indicating that replacement in-situ was really difficult to do correctly.

 

[nocfn]

I remember asking about changing them!!

 

[a777fan]

I remember asking about changing them!!

i blame you for asking

 

[gsxr]

they are original... didn't touch them. I they must have gotten jealous

should i take the whole upper timing chain cover off to replace? I thought I remembered people indicating that replacement in-situ was really difficult to do correctly.

Given the hassle of taking off the front head cover... I'd attempt to replace it-situ first. Get a couple pairs of seals (they're cheap) in case you bugger one up. You will need to fabricate something to pull the new seal into place, I'd try using the center bolt for the rotor to pull a sleeve that matches the OD of the seal.

It's easier with them loose on the workbench, but that means removing the valve covers again, and a lot of other stuff.

 

[nocfn]

A 2.5” wood screw on each side, a few threads in and pull out.

 

[a777fan]

Thanks guys. I’ll attempt in place. Worth a shot first as you stated dave!


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[a777fan]

After discovering the leaking cam seal, i spent the rest of the afternoon on the other end of the car. I had bought new trunk bump stops and trim to replace the crumbling original items. I also took the opportunity to take all the rear trim off and clean out the gutters. They were looking pretty gross the last time I washed the car.

Old trim passenger side:

Drivers:

Gunk under everything

Cleaned it all up and found this manufacturing sticker

May 5, 1994. Which is interesting as the door jamb sticker has an April 94 date.

Glad I pulled all the seals off. Found some rust starting. This has been a CA car its whole life.

Coated all the seals with aerospace 303 and popped it back together.

New stops and trims:

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[a777fan]

Also checked for codes yesterday afternoon. Nothing additional has yet to pop up!

 

[nocfn]

very good, no codes and oil leaks - sound German.

 

[a777fan]

I think my viscous fan is going out.

Even after the cooling system rebuild the temp creeps up towards 100 with the AC on, which I irrationally just don’t like.

I did the ROAR test today when I got home, and interestingly enough, the fan seemed to hook up the first two times I revved the engine. The third and following times it did not. Intermittent failure?

(Dreading the OE cost )


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[gsxr]

Jon, keep in mind the clutch is an analog device... what you describe is not a failure, but rather drifting out of spec (assuming it was calibrated properly in the first place). There are a couple of very, very long threads discussing this ad nauseam. Bottom line is, a new OE clutch may be the same, or better, or even worse. Do you have the tools to remove the clutch with the radiator in place? If so, you can do some experimenting, if so inclined.

But first, let's back up... with the AC running and temps at ~95C, are the twin electric fans running on low speed? If not, that needs to be addressed first (and is likely a much easier fix).

 

[a777fan]

Jon, keep in mind the clutch is an analog device... what you describe is not a failure, but rather drifting out of spec (assuming it was calibrated properly in the first place). There are a couple of very, very long threads discussing this ad nauseam. Bottom line is, a new OE clutch may be the same, or better, or even worse. Do you have the tools to remove the clutch with the radiator in place? If so, you can do some experimenting, if so inclined.

But first, let's back up... with the AC running and temps at ~95C, are the twin electric fans running on low speed? If not, that needs to be addressed first (and is likely a much easier fix).

Ooh. Interesting. I had the AC off by the time I got home and did the roar test. I will have to check again next time I take it out. I do remember the fans kicking on HIGH last summer when the gauge would creep past 107C. (Old stuck thermostat etc)

Interesting comments about the viscous operation. I did run across at least one of the clutch threads but must have missed the part about engaging and disengaging when cycling through an rpm range. I’ll have to think about that a bit as I’m not fully following. I know it will disengage above 4kish, but I certainly didn’t rev it up that high while cycling up and down during the test. Hence why I assumed that it would just stay engaged locked in at engine speed the whole time.




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[gsxr]

Interesting comments about the viscous operation. I did run across at least one of the clutch threads but must have missed the part about engaging and disengaging when cycling through an rpm range. I’ll have to think about that a bit as I’m not fully following. I know it will disengage above 4kish, but I certainly didn’t rev it up that high while cycling up and down during the test. Hence why I assumed that it would just stay engaged locked in at engine speed the whole time.

Jon, that is the analog part... the clutches do not have a "digital" operation where they are either fully disengaged, or fully engaged. What you describe is a clutch that is partially engaged, roaring at idle and just above idle, but disengaging and freewheeling well before the 3600rpm cutoff (which is fixed/digital, all OE Sachs/Horton clutches should fully disengage around 3600rpm). I sent you an email with a bit more info.

 

[Trae]

Here is GSXR trying to teach me the about the operation of the viscous fan.
I am the student in black.

[video=youtube;KdxEAt91D7k]

 

[Trae]

Seriously, I need to do the roar test to my 92'. . . runs 90 degrees until I stop with the AC on, then the temp. soars to 105.

 

[gsxr]

Seriously, I need to do the roar test to my 92'. . . runs 90 degrees until I stop with the AC on, then the temp. soars to 105.

Trae, did you confirm the twin electric fans are spinning away on low speed with the AC on? Either wya, with temp at 105C, definitely check for the ocean roar.

 

[a777fan]

Multiple updates tonight!

Replaced the leaking cam seal. And I only destroyed two of them before I got it right.

Definitely leaking pretty badly, as I had this area cleaned up after I found the issue this weekend.

Was able to get the seal seated in from the cover face by about 2.25 mm all around.

I used this Volkswagen cam seal i had lying around from my Passat days. Worked out pretty well!

The old seal after extraction

Time will tell if I fixed it correctly, but so far no apparent leaks.

Next i changed the oil. The old stuff only had about 1500 miles on it, but I wanted it outta there since I had everything opened up. This also gave me the opportunity to drop the oil pan!

The pump pickup tube was the old short style.

As a bonus it was cracked and all dangly

I replaced it and the pickup screen with new.

Some numb-nuts had used RTV on the pan side of the gasket. It took a dremel wire wheel and about 45 minutes to clean all the junk off. Re-installed with a new gasket and no RTV.

Final piece. I confirmed the aux fans were non-functional on low speed by jumping the ac pressure switch connections. I could hear the relay click... pulled it and found this!

Aux fans are once again functional at low speed!!!

Dave pointed me to a klink post which discussed upping the amperage on that fuse slightly to avoid future blows. I have to do some additional research in that thread before committing to that.


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[nocfn]

When I changed out the resistor, removed its sarcophagus and rebuilt the wiring harness there, der Klink said to change that fuse as well, and I did. My fans work as intended, the resistor now has heavy duty, heat shrink wiring and the fuse will blow if that resistor or its wiring blow, and not before like it did with the smaller amperage. He also suggested that I cut out a quarter-sized hole in the plastic headlight cap (in addition to the air tube) so more flow on the resistor will keep it from glowing as brightly at temps.

 

[a777fan]

Woot! New floormats via ebay!

I figured it was time. jonie13’s gonna be needin his all weather ones back anyway!


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[a777fan]

Pulled the passenger side dist cap/insulator and belly pan this morning to check for leaks from the new cam seal and oil pan gasket. I think the cam seal might be seeping sightly, but I can’t tell for sure. There was just a hint of oil ‘mist’ (no drips) back on the air pump and engine mount cooling pipe. But the area behind the insulator looks clean and dry!

The bolts at the rear of the oil pan were slightly wet, so I re-torqued everything again to spec, as I have read is sometimes required after replacing the gasket.

All in all pretty happy with these results!

One thing I am still not totally happy about is the cooling system performance. Its about 80 deg F in Seattle today. We were out driving today WITHOUT AC, and the car seemed content around 90-95-100 on the gauge. When climbing hills it would creep over 100. I never heard the high speed fans kick on, but my impression is that the car should be cooler than this with the AC off, in the ambient temps we’re currently experiencing. The low speed fans are once again functional, but as I understand it, they are only used when the AC is on?

Thoughts welcome as usual!


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[gsxr]

One thing I am still not totally happy about is the cooling system performance. Its about 80 deg F in Seattle today. We were out driving today WITHOUT AC, and the car seemed content around 90-95-100 on the gauge. When climbing hills it would creep over 100. I never heard the high speed fans kick on, but my impression is that the car should be cooler than this with the AC off, in the ambient temps we’re currently experiencing. The low speed fans are once again functional, but as I understand it, they are only used when the AC is on?

You are correct about the fans... low speed triggers based on refrigerant pressure, and will cycle on/off only when AC is in use. High speed triggers only based on coolant temp, on at 107C, off around 100C or so.

Have you done the "roar test" on the viscous fan clutch, when coolant temp is indicating 100C or higher?

 

[a777fan]

Dave, I have done the roar test, and I came away with what I thought were inconsistent results.

Here is what I did:

1) Parked car with temp at ~90
2) Popped hood
3) Revved engine to ~2500/3000 via throttle linkage
4) Observed ‘roar’
5) Let engine return to idle for 10 or so seconds
6) Revved engine to ~2500/3000 via throttle linkage
7) Fan did not roar

So the fan hooked up the first time I revved the engine and roared, but not the second time. I think you have previously indicated that this is normal, although perhaps my previous description of the observed behavior was poor. Or, maybe this is really normal behavior for the clutch?


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[gsxr]

...So the fan hooked up the first time I revved the engine and roared, but not the second time. I think you have previously indicated that this is normal, although perhaps my previous description of the observed behavior was poor. Or, maybe this is really normal behavior for the clutch?

That sounds like it may be normal. Remember, the clutch engages based on AIR temp... it never knows what the dash gauge reads. In the scenario above, it could be the initial roar (and increased airflow) cooled the radiator enough to temporarily reduce the air temp on the clutch face, resulting in the lack of roar when you checked shortly afterwards. As mentioned previously, it can be partially engaged, where it disengages at 1500-2500rpm (roughly). It will only roar up to the 3500rpm cutoff when "fully" engaged. This is why I generally recommend testing in the hottest conditions reasonably possible, usually 100C+ engine temp, and preferably 90F+ ambient temp, with AC on to add more heat load from the condenser. If a fan never roars even in those conditions, something is probably wrong.

Anyway - kinda sounds like your fan clutch is probably fine.

 

[a777fan]

Thanks dave!

Do the temps I was observing yesterday during city driving seem normal or high to you?

Im used to idiot temp gauges that sit at one point at all times unless something is wrong. Its taking me a bit to calibrate my own ‘sensors’


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[gsxr]

In general it sounds normal, to slightly higher than normal, but not anything to worry about.

Just to clarify, when climbing hills in 80F ambients with AC off, how high did the temp gauge go? Needle width over the 100C line? More? Snap a photo if you're sitting at a stoplight or otherwise parked...

 

[a777fan]

In general it sounds normal, to slightly higher than normal, but not anything to worry about.

Just to clarify, when climbing hills in 80F ambients with AC off, how high did the temp gauge go? Needle width over the 100C line? More? Snap a photo if you're sitting at a stoplight or otherwise parked...

Will do.

If i had to guess what the indicated temp was, i would say 102-105...


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[a777fan]

I’ve lived in Seattle for nearly 20 years, but have never made it up to the North Cascades Highway. That changed today. Üter was a champ the whole way!

Unbelievably beautiful.

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[luckymike]

Wow, you picked a great day for the drive!

 

[a777fan]

I installed a WOT LH module that I had pink n pulled a while back. Look at what it does on a cold start...

This is only on the first cold start of the day. If its warm, even slightly, it wont do it. Signs of a flaky module?

[video=youtube_share;vjCHgz-jiYE]

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[gsxr]

At the next cold start, either pull the rear seat bottom out, or put your ear up to the area on the passenger side. If you hear steady clicking, the module needs the capacitors replaced.

It would be odd if the module wasn't clicking, and caused the RPM fluctuation shown. Although... did you re-set module adaptation, by "clearing" code #1 with a blinker box? I'm assuming you do not have a digital scanner to view adaptation values. Could also be something weird like the existing adaptation being pegged at the limit, and it will take quite a bit of driving for the module to un-learn the old engine, and re-learn the new. Resetting speeds up the process.

 

[a777fan]

At the next cold start, either pull the rear seat bottom out, or put your ear up to the area on the passenger side. If you hear steady clicking, the module needs the capacitors replaced.

It would be odd if the module wasn't clicking, and caused the RPM fluctuation shown. Although... did you re-set module adaptation, by "clearing" code #1 with a blinker box? I'm assuming you do not have a digital scanner to view adaptation values. Could also be something weird like the existing adaptation being pegged at the limit, and it will take quite a bit of driving for the module to un-learn the old engine, and re-learn the new. Resetting speeds up the process.

I did not reset adaptation... [emoji51] But I will tonight!

I’ll also enlist the help of my assistant to listen for the ‘clicking’ on next cold start.

You make it sound like the capacitors can be replaced? On a scale of one to ten... where does that job rank?




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[gsxr]

I’ll also enlist the help of my assistant to listen for the ‘clicking’ on next cold start.

You make it sound like the capacitors can be replaced? On a scale of one to ten... where does that job rank?

Best case, it's click-free, and just a weird adaptation issue.

If you have wielded a soldering iron in the past, on circuit board components, you could DIY the capacitor swap. If not... depends if you want to gamble on learning on this module, or pay a local electronic shop to do the work for you. Or buy another module. There are probably a bunch of YouTube videos that show how to de-solder and re-solder a component (i.e., capacitor). It's not terribly difficult, but there is moderate risk of damaging the board/module if you mess up.